Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Herzlos

Zuzel wrote: »

What you think fortunately ain't worth a damn.
In the EU elections The Brexit Party - only months old - basically wiped the floor with everybody except the Scots standing purely on a Brexit at any cost promise.

The Brexit Party did well in the EU elections based on a policy of "we'll tell you later" and soundbites of "Brexit Brexit betrayal Brexit", but it's not a good gauge of anything since the turnout was low and it's almost an irrelevant vote if we're leaving. The 'pro-leave' groups still didn't exceed 42% of the vote.



If you want to know what people want to do about Brexit, we need to ask them that and stop with the proxy votes.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

For a non binding referendum the result has proven remarkably resilient.

It really is pretty resiliant. We're now 3 years in and still wasting a huge amount of time on it despite there being no actual plan or details. I dread to think what the Brexit distraction/administration has cost us and what else we could have done with that time/money.

SouthLondonUser

Adindas, do you deny that some leave voters were pro hard Brexit while others were not? Do you deny that the Leave campaign never said: Brexit means a hard, no deal Brexit? Do you deny that Remain, hard Brexit, and Brexit with a deal are incompatible options and therefore the choice was never binary?

You have also not explained what "higher than the Constitution" means and how it is relevant to our case. Care to explain? What countries are you referring to? What exactly happens there? Please either explain or admit you didn't know what you were talking about.

Herzlos

movilogo wrote: »

Even if ref 2 happens, it won't resolve the issue.
...
Genie is out of the bottle. Far better to get out of EU and then hold a ref in few years to see if people want to re-join.

I agree, even if Remain won 70/30, the leavers would still scream about betrayal.


The only way for this to ever end is to leave, let the leavers show how bad an idea it was and then rejoin. You never know, it might even actually be a success.

SouthLondonUser

I beg to differ. Brexit is like a religion. It's about faith, not facts. No matter how bad Brexit may turn out to be, the true believers will always say that the idea was sound, but it was implemented poorly - ie blame the execution not the idea itself.

Arklight

Herzlos wrote: »

I agree, even if Remain won 70/30, the leavers would still scream about betrayal.


The only way for this to ever end is to leave, let the leavers show how bad an idea it was and then rejoin. You never know, it might even actually be a success.

The following would be a good outcome IMO:

Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU
Northern Ireland reunification
The end of Trident and the pretensions of rUK as a nuclear power
rUK cedes it's place on the Security Council
Tories unelectable for two generations at least
A Labour government in place committed to social democracy, able to promote a realistic vision to English people of their status in the world
rUK normalises relations with Scotland as a bridge with the EU
rUK normalises relations with the EU with collaboration on trade, research, free movement, and education

There's a lot that could get in the way of that, but it's not impossible. Scotland leaving under a Johnson's miserable premiership would be a good start.

Zuzel

Herzlos wrote: »

The Brexit Party did well in the EU elections based on a policy of "we'll tell you later" and soundbites of "Brexit Brexit betrayal Brexit", but it's not a good gauge of anything since the turnout was low and it's almost an irrelevant vote if we're leaving. The 'pro-leave' groups still didn't exceed 42% of the vote.



If you want to know what people want to do about Brexit, we need to ask them that and stop with the proxy votes.

Here's a map for you of seats now held by The Brexit Party; see for yourself who has most seats despite your trying to play the result down.
This, remember, after mere weeks in existence for The Brexit Party.
Now if after that you really believe that there is little chance of The Brexit Party achieving a landslide victory in a general election should things go t1ts-up and Brexit not be completed within the next few months, well that's your problem but at least it'll give you something else to whinge about.
You're reaping your just rewards after sowing so much dissent.

Enterprise_1701C

Arklight wrote: »

The following would be a good outcome IMO:

Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU
Northern Ireland reunification
The end of Trident and the pretensions of rUK as a nuclear power
rUK cedes it's place on the Security Council
Tories unelectable for two generations at least
A Labour government in place committed to social democracy, able to promote a realistic vision to English people of their status in the world
rUK normalises relations with Scotland as a bridge with the EU
rUK normalises relations with the EU with collaboration on trade, research, free movement, and education

There's a lot that could get in the way of that, but it's not impossible. Scotland leaving under a Johnson's miserable premiership would be a good start.

I always knew you were anti-UK, but trying to destroy my country will not work.

Labour under the current leadership would see the country down the pan in under 6 months, I remember the days when the country was run by the unions and it really is not a good idea to put momentum in charge of the country.

As for the idea of ending Trident - no, simply no.

And why would you want us to cede our place on the Security Council?

Nope, your list would totally destroy the country, which is quite obviously what you want.

Arklight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

I always knew you were anti-UK, but trying to destroy my country will not work.

Labour under the current leadership would see the country down the pan in under 6 months, I remember the days when the country was run by the unions and it really is not a good idea to put momentum in charge of the country.

As for the idea of ending Trident - no, simply no.

And why would you want us to cede our place on the Security Council?

Nope, your list would totally destroy the country, which is quite obviously what you want.

If you don't want the UK to break up and for us to be too skint to afford our handful of stupid nuclear weapons that serve no point at all other than as some kind of anachronistic status symbol, you should probably stop voting for Tory governments and Brexits.

I've never voted for political parties comprised of corporate billionaires who appear to mostly detest their constituents. I've never voted to make the UK poorer and for people to lose their jobs by leaving the world's richest trading bloc.

That's all on you lot. In a sense you should be happy because you're getting exactly what you asked for.

silverwhistle

adindas, we don't have a written constitution. You will also find that countries who make considerable use of referenda such as Switzerland have rules about the phrasing of the questions and have even invalidated a referendum because the voters were not in full possession of the facts.



Nobody voted for a no deal referendum, the whole campaign was built on lies (Cambridge Analytica anyone?). Now we have an immoral, adulterous, incompetent and lazy liar as our prime minister backed by some of the most extreme right wing politicians out there. It's not going to end well.