Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

Takedap

Arklight wrote: »

Brexit isn't a party political issue for anyone other than whatever group of Brown Shirts Nigel Farage is currently frothing up, and the Yellow Tories (formerly known as the Lib Dems).

Back in grown up adult people's political parties, they are roughly split. Slightly more Labour voters want to remain than leave and slightly more Tories want to leave than remain.

I don't think many people want to leave with no deal.

There is only one way to know whether or not the Government would be given a mandate to leave with no deal.


Ask the electorate.


It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

Filo25

lisyloo wrote: »

So who will you be voting for?

I’m a disaffected Long time Tory voter and will be switching to Lib Dem as there’s a two horse race is my constituency and Lib Dem have won before. I’d have to think harder if there were more than two choices, but there isn’t where I live.

LibDems, not that they will win in my seat!

Tromking

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

What do you mean resilient? Let me remind you that, at the EU elections just now, the clearly pro Brexit parties have won less than 50%. UKIP + Brexit Party ca 33% of the votes. UKIP + Brexit + Tories ca 42% (and not all Tories are leavers).

Does this mean the country is certainly pro Remain now? No, because Labour is split, and so are its voters. It means we don't know for sure. Do you?

Don't confuse winking the largest share of the votes in most constituency with winning >50% of the votes overall, those are very different things.

A FPTP electoral system is highly distortive and unrepresentative in this respect. A referendum isn't, every vote counts the same and no vote is wasted. So there could be a situation, for example, where the Brexit Party wins a majority in Westminster with 30% of the votes, BUT remain might win in another referendum. I am not saying I know for sure that's the case, I'm just saying it's possible

Resilient as in the democratic imperative to leave the EU is still trumping everything else.

SouthLondonUser

But, if we want to use the EU elections as a proxy of how people would vote in a second referendum, the results are not clear at all. Unless you think there is no point in asking again even though more than 3 years have gone by, most of Leave's promises have been exposed as nonsense, the rethoric has gone from easiest deal ever to let's brace for no deal, etc.

Arklight

Takedap wrote: »

There is only one way to know whether or not the Government would be given a mandate to leave with no deal.


Ask the electorate.


It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

The electorate were asked when May took over. The country was asked to give the Tories a thumping mandate for a "red white and blue Brexit "

She won so few seats the Tories are now only in power courtesy of a cabal of ignorant, misogynistic, homophobic, religious fundamentalists.

Although I appreciate the way the Tories are going this is becoming the norm.

I agree there needs to be another election.

adindas

Arklight wrote: »

I don't think many people want to leave with no deal.

I think the arch remoaners try shifting the issue.

In your own negotiation if the option is to leave without a deal or to have a deal that will suck your blood for the rest of your life and leave you with humiliation, which one you choose ?? In the past there were a few examples where countries prepared to go war for this reason alone, let alone just brexit which only have a short term impact (not a long term).

I know what to choose, any reasonable person know what to choose.

SouthLondonUser

You know what to choose but luckily it's not guaranteed that most of the population agrees with you.

Remember, at the EU elections the Brexit and UKIP parties, the only parties who are 100% pro Brexit at any cost including no deal, got about a third of the vote. Last time I checked, that's less than half.

Of course I may be wrong and the vast majority of the population may agree with you. In which case, why are Brexiters so scared of a second referendum? I don't get it - unless they're afraid of losing it, of course. And before you start the usual drivel about there's already been a vote etc etc, well, 3 years is a lifetime in which LOTS has changed, including the fact that Leavers' lies have been exposed, and the rethoric has switched from easiest deal ever to let's brace for the impact of a no deal.

adindas

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Remember, at the EU elections the Brexit and UKIP parties, the only parties who are 100% pro Brexit at any cost including no deal, got about a third of the vote. Last time I checked, that's less than half.

Forget about UKIP. The combine force of Brexit party + Conservative (with the new leader) will win overwhelming majority if there were a general election. Nigel Farage have said they are willing to work with conservative.

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

You know what to choose but luckily it's not guaranteed that most of the population agrees with you.

Remember, at the EU elections the Brexit and UKIP parties, the only parties who are 100% pro Brexit at any cost including no deal, got about a third of the vote. Last time I checked, that's less than half.

Of course I may be wrong and the vast majority of the population may agree with you. In which case, why are Brexiters so scared of a second referendum? I don't get it - unless they're afraid of losing it, of course. And before you start the usual drivel about there's already been a vote etc etc, well, 3 years is a lifetime in which LOTS has changed, including the fact that Leavers' lies have been exposed, and the rethoric has switched from easiest deal ever to let's brace for the impact of a no deal.

Try to divert the issue again ? I don't think the brexiters in general scared with the second referendum, but they disagree if the second referendum to be rerun before the result of the first referendum is delivered. If after a few years there was evidence that the brexit is not working than proposal for another referendum will be reasonable. But in this case, UK have not even exited the EU and people want another referendum ?? What you witness now is not Brexit but UK is still in the EU.

In the general election it has never be the case where people ask for another general election before the result of the general election is delivered for obvious reason. Let alone the referendum is considered is the highest order in democracy. In some countries referendum is even higher than the constitution.

SouthLondonUser

adindas wrote: »

Try to divert the issue again ?

????? In what way?

adindas wrote: »

In the general election it has never be the case where people ask for another general election before the result of the general election is delivered for obvious reason.

Can you put together at least one sentence written in proper English or is that too much to ask? It's becoming really hard to follow what you write.


The problem is that the referendum was never between two clear choices, but between one clear option (the status quo) and a vague alternative (Brexit) which meant radically different things to different people. Did the referendum ask if voters wanted to Brexit no matter what, including with a no deal? Not that I recall. Do you know how many Leave voters would be happy with a no-deal and how many wouldn't? I don't, but maybe you have a better crystal ball than me?

adindas wrote: »

Let alone the referendum is considered is the highest order in democracy. In some countries referendum is even higher than the constitution.

I would really like you to explain this, please. What does 'higher' mean? In what countries? Can you elaborate, please? I am sure you know what you are talking about, so it should be quite easy for you to elaborate on the concept.


By the way, in some countries certain matters (like tax and international treaties) cannot be subject to a referendum.



Or a qualified majority is required for key decisions; after all, a simple majority is not sufficient to call a general election, so why should it be sufficient for such a potentially life-changing decision as Brexit? It makes no sense.

adindas

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

The problem is that the referendum was never between two clear choices, but between one clear option (the status quo) and a vague alternative (Brexit)

Tosh Tosh Tosh Tosh Tosh Tosh

In many cases, referendum is a "binary choice” to be crystal clear of what to choose. Unless of course for a person who keep commenting other people language. Highly Intelligent people communicate with machines which only understand a few words.

A referendum on Scottish independence from the United Kingdom took place on Thursday 18 September 2014. The referendum question was

"Should Scotland be an independent country?", which voters answered with "Yes" or "No".

The Gibraltar sovereignty referendum of 2002
Do you approve of the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar? permitting a simple YES / NO answer

It is a binary option

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

I would really like you to explain this, please. What does 'higher' mean? In what countries? Can you elaborate, please? I am sure you know what you are talking about, so it should be quite easy for you to elaborate on the concept.
.

In some countries a referendum could lead to a constitutional change.