Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

adindas

Fran_Klee wrote: »

At this stage it's impossible to know how much alignment there will be in the future between the UK and the EU - trying to speculate is nothing more than guessing but what we already know is that as a current full member we are fully aligned already.
Are you suggesting that this alignment will disappear overnight maybe?"

That all the regulations imposed over the course of decades of membership will suddenly just cease to exist here in the UK?
That's an extremely unlikely scenario, you must admit.

It is a very good point. I think everyone rational know the answer.
People make everything a problem that should not be a problem if they want to achieve something.

Unfortunately the hardcore remoaners and the EU this issue as a sticking point for a very obvious reason.

Fran_Klee wrote: »

A comparable example? Why; one is unnecessary. Trade flows globally and has done for centuries, most frequently without any problem.
Which leads to this thought: countries generally don't buy and sell things, people and companies in countries do.
If your country suddenly makes it difficult to buy and sell from one particular area either the difficulties are worked-around or alternatives are sourced, and this as you must surely realise works in both directions.
North Korea and Iran (for just a few examples) haven't disappeared despite the most severe restrictions being placed on them.

UK could simply do Canadian style trade with the EU but the EU Have the interest to keep UK in the EU by making the Irish border as a problem.

I mention it many times to hardcore reamoaners, the EU keep the Irish border as a sticking point because they want to keep UK as a cash cow and subservient of the EU under ECJ

SouthLondonUser

What a load of nonsense. Of course I am not suggesting decades of regulation will disappear overnight. But some may change in a while. After all, wasn't this the whole point of Brexit? To set us free from the unspecified shackles of Bruxelles and set our own rules (never mind Brexiters can never explain what EU law they want to get rid of and why...)? Doesn't this mean divergence in the future??????????

So, I ask again: how would the UK levy VAT etc, check compliance with regulations etc, and we haven't even covered immigration yet?

Look at Denmark and Sweden for an example of what happens when border checks are reintroduced between two countries that have become tightly interconnected. This happened when Schengen was temporarily susoended3a couple of years ago. Big chaos and massive inconvenience for all the commuters and travellers who go back and forth over the bridge between the two countries. And there were no custom inspections. But I cannot point this out because otherwise I am a remoaner project fear I don't believe in this country etc etc, right?

Fran_Klee

"Nonsense" is correct it seems but on your part.

You've so far insistently tried to manufacture problems where none currently exist, presumably out of sheer desperation to further your "Brexit is bad" beliefs.

The UK would levy these things exactly the same way that it does now. Not all our imports come from the EU you know, in fact less than half do - why not have a look and see how these work currently instead of demanding answers that already exist.

Would there be any point my explaining that currently container-loads of goods for my company arrive regularly here in the UK, having been sealed in the USA on dispatch?
And that all the documentation for these shipments is received electronically in preparation for whatever duties and charges may fall due, before the shipment has even left the port in the USA usually?

Or will you instead persist in your fallacy that armies of people are necessary to minutely examine each and every nook and cranny of every single shipment which travels pretty much anywhere apparently so that charges may be levied (you think) more accurately?
It's like stepping back in time 50 years!

Then you yourself point out the major factor in your own supposed problem area; "the bridge".
It is all water, with just one bridge.
AKA a bottleneck.
Completely and utterly dissimilar to any Ireland/UK border then.


As such you surely have to admit, those failed attempts at justifying what might never even happen do very much look like "remoaner project fear" so far, don't they?

adindas

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Look at Denmark and Sweden for an example of what happens when border checks are reintroduced between two countries that have become tightly interconnected. This happened when Schengen was temporarily susoended3a couple of years ago. Big chaos and massive inconvenience for all the commuters and travellers who go back and forth over the bridge between the two countries. And there were no custom inspections. But I cannot point this out because otherwise I am a remoaner project fear I don't believe in this country etc etc, right?

Here we go. You defy your own argument.
Noone has ever suggested it will be business as usual as if two countries were in the EU. Expecting this sort of thing is senseless.

There will be a short time problem but manageable. It works as the system is still working to this date with Denmark and Sweden, the example you have put in case by yourself.

The EU keep making the Irish border as an issue because they want to keep UK as a cash cow and subservient of the EU under ECJ. Also they are very afraid the UK will triumph in the future. When this things happen that is the end EU.

Let them solve the problem they have created by themselves.

SouthLondonUser

Unless there is a bridge from the US which I have missed, I presume goods from the US arrive either by ship or by plane, not by lorry.
How would these checks not at the border work with lorries? What's to prevent a lorry from offloading some of its cargo between the border and the checks? I must have asked this question 4 times, still no answer... Deafening silence!

I am not saying there is no solution. I am no expert in these things. I am saying I would like to know. And I am saying that, AFAIK, Brexiters have so far miserably failed to address all these pesky details.

BikingBud

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Unless there is a bridge from the US which I have missed, I presume goods from the US arrive either by ship or by plane, not by lorry.
How would these checks not at the border work with lorries? What's to prevent a lorry from offloading some of its cargo between the border and the checks? I must have asked this question 4 times, still no answer... Deafening silence!

I am not saying there is no solution. I am no expert in these things. I am saying I would like to know. And I am saying that, AFAIK, Brexiters have so far miserably failed to address all these pesky details.

I really do think you are trying to invent problems, but here goes trying to build a logical arrangement from someone that knows nothing about shipping.

Bonded Stores?

If things come via air then they will be tracked via QCodes/RFID tags or similar. All it takes it a unique number for each shipment with a sender and a receiver. If the receiver is not able to pay the required tax then this will be levied and receipted by the logistics company, DHL or such like before the good are released.

Most shipping uses ISO containers either as a collection via ship such as into Felixstowe or via discrete trucks as in via the Channel Tunnel. These could be treated as major consignments and tracked as an ISO or they could be a collection of items that DHL or such deal for the customers.

Lorries/ISO that are not tracked via a nominated, and possibly licensed agent, can be stopped and checked at Port of Entry. Spot checks on the licensed service providers can be utilised to ensure that they remain above board.

Does that seem reasonable? Or is it still pie in the sky.

You may also wish to consider the following

2019 European Union VAT rates
The EU sets the broad VAT rules through European VAT Directives, and has set the minimum standard VAT rate at 15%. The 28 member states are otherwise free to set their standard VAT rates. The EU also permits a maximum of two reduced rates, the lowest of which must be 5% or above. Some countries have variations on this, including a third, reduced VAT rate, which they had in place prior to their accession to the EU.

Member states have now agreed that they will be free to set the reduced rates on most goods and services, including: e-books; domestic fuel; clothing; and female hygiene products.

So VAT is not standard across Europe and if you have ever driven through Europe you may have experienced the busy petrol stations close to borders due to differing fuel costs, especially Luxembourg, Holland and Austria where Germans quite regularly pop across to fill up the car and a few tanks while they're at it.

Eire's VAT rate is currently set at 23% vice the UK at 20% and some in the EU as low as 17% and some up to 27%.

BikingBud

EU Co-operation:

Austria closes country roads to German travelers
Tyrol province will restrict access to country roads, which travelers use to avoid traffic and tolls. The move is the latest escalation between Germany's state of Bavaria and Austria over cross-border transportation.

Schengen? Open borders?

Pish

VoucherMan

SouthLondonUser wrote: »

Unless there is a bridge from the US which I have missed, I presume goods from the US arrive either by ship or by plane, not by lorry.
How would these checks not at the border work with lorries? What's to prevent a lorry from offloading some of its cargo between the border and the checks? I must have asked this question 4 times, still no answer... Deafening silence!

I am not saying there is no solution. I am no expert in these things. I am saying I would like to know. And I am saying that, AFAIK, Brexiters have so far miserably failed to address all these pesky details.

You have been replied to multiple times, but you appear to be ignoring those replies.


How do you suppose those goods get to the ships or planes?

What's the difference between a lorry carrying a sealed container between North & South, and Fran Klee's containers full of goods arriving from the US? Do you think all containers are checked as they're unloaded from ships onto the lorries taking them to their final destination?

I'm not claiming it's an all in one solution. It's clearly not as there's a long list of goods that can't be transported using the system, but your comment highlighted above is wearing a little thin.

cogito

BikingBud wrote: »

I really do think you are trying to invent problems, but here goes trying to build a logical arrangement from someone that knows nothing about shipping.

Bonded Stores?

If things come via air then they will be tracked via QCodes/RFID tags or similar. All it takes it a unique number for each shipment with a sender and a receiver. If the receiver is not able to pay the required tax then this will be levied and receipted by the logistics company, DHL or such like before the good are released.

Most shipping uses ISO containers either as a collection via ship such as into Felixstowe or via discrete trucks as in via the Channel Tunnel. These could be treated as major consignments and tracked as an ISO or they could be a collection of items that DHL or such deal for the customers.

Lorries/ISO that are not tracked via a nominated, and possibly licensed agent, can be stopped and checked at Port of Entry. Spot checks on the licensed service providers can be utilised to ensure that they remain above board.

Does that seem reasonable? Or is it still pie in the sky.

You may also wish to consider the following


So VAT is not standard across Europe and if you have ever driven through Europe you may have experienced the busy petrol stations close to borders due to differing fuel costs, especially Luxembourg, Holland and Austria where Germans quite regularly pop across to fill up the car and a few tanks while they're at it.

Eire's VAT rate is currently set at 23% vice the UK at 20% and some in the EU as low as 17% and some up to 27%.

You really shouldn’t confuse people with facts.

BikingBud

cogito wrote: »

You really shouldn’t confuse people with facts.

Who are you calling a fact?