Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

BikingBud

phillw wrote: »

It is dismal. The EU has given us prosperity, rights, cleaner environment and yet we are leaving because half the country don't like working together with the foreigners that made it possible.

It is within your right to hold that viewpoint, but you have to accept that it doesn't make you look good. Like you can wear red trousers, but you can't make us think you're not weird for doing so.

There goes your prejudice again. What is wrong with red trousers or black trousers or check trousers or blokes in skirts or blue hair or shorts or spiky hair or tattoos? Your tolerance levels are really out of kilter with an inclusive society, we've seen this before, and you refer to me as a xenophobe:T.

Whilst I agree that we have made progress over the last 40 years to ascertain that its all down to membership of the EU is missing the point about the way the rest of the world, yes those outside Europe, have also progressed during that time.

Herzlos

phillw wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by tainting the ballot papers.

I'm saying that a brexit referendum would need to ask just about Brexit, something like:
Do you want to:
Leave the EU with no deal.
Leave the EU with Mays deal.
Remain in the EU.


Without confusing this with any other issues/politics. A generation election, local election or EU election is done using a myriad of factors (as it should), but those other factors mean we can't tell what it means regarding Brexit.

Filo25

Rinoa wrote: »

Well, whatever you think of Farage, you have to admire his organisation skills.

Forms a political party, chooses the candidates for an election we didn't know was happening until a few weeks ago, puts all the election machinery into place and secures 32% of the vote. All in 6 weeks.

Can you imagine any other politician we've recently entrusted to run the country being able to do the same?

Suppoosedly they have been poreparing for this since last November, it wasn't exactly an unplanned campaign.

I won't diminish the achievement too much but it was helped significantly by the lack of progress on Brexit, the fact that UKIP are basically a racist joke these days and the Tories gave up on this one to the extent that they barely bothered campaigning. So there were a lot of voters there to be hoovered up.

Herzlos

Rinoa wrote: »

Well, whatever you think of Farage, you have to admire his organisation skills.

Forms a political party, chooses the candidates for an election we didn't know was happening until a few weeks ago, puts all the election machinery into place and secures 32% of the vote. All in 6 weeks.

Can you imagine any other politician we've recently entrusted to run the country being able to do the same?

He's undoubtedly good at what he does - empty populist rhetoric. He managed to do all of that whilst not providing any manifesto, details, disclosures, and refusing to answer any questions even those verifying if he still agrees with recorded past statements. No-one knows what kind of Brexit he wants, beyond "just get on with it". Once it comes to the hard questions (like "what do you mean?") he'll slink away again and moan that we're betrayed.


He can somehow be a member of the elite whilst campaigning as a man of the people. He was clearly campaigning to keep his MEP job.



He's a dangerous man, but there's no doubt about him being excellent at courting public popularity. If only he had some substance or integrity.

phillw

BikingBud wrote: »

There goes your prejudice again. What is wrong with red trousers or black trousers or check trousers or blokes in skirts or blue hair or shorts or spiky hair or tattoos?

I was using an analogy you would understand, half the country hate them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-23530064 & so it's a perfect analogy for brexit.

I wore white jeans to work once and it bought a permanent end to dress down Friday because the boss was so prejudiced (interestingly he tolerated the guy who wore red trousers).

You have a right to wear red trousers or colour your hair, but you know you are making a statement when you do so. My point is you don't get to choose how people think of you when you make that statement.

I think you don't understand what tolerance is, I tolerate a lot of things that I disagree with. Me thinking you're weird for wearing what you want is not intolerance. I would vote against any ban and help fight off someone that was attacking you for it.

Having an initial distrust of people who are not like you doesn't make you xenophobic, it's normal. How you deal with that feeling in the long term does. Voting to be worse off because you don't like people coming to OUR country is a tell.

BikingBud wrote: »

Whilst I agree that we have made progress over the last 40 years to ascertain that its all down to membership of the EU is missing the point about the way the rest of the world, yes those outside Europe, have also progressed during that time.

You're missing the point completely, I'm not saying there is something magical about Europe. I'm saying it's because we joined a trading block. We're leaving that, we don't stand a chance. No way & no how. Anyone that told you we could is wrong. No amount of blind faith in the country is going to help you, you may as well have faith that if you flap your wings then you can fly.

Cakeguts

phillw wrote: »

How out of touch are they? A higher turnout swapped lib dem from 2nd place to 1st place.

The fascists are on the rise in europe, but the majority haven't backed them. Like the majority haven't backed the brexit party.

A better question would be why so many leave supporters are out of touch.

The leave supporters seem to have known what they were voting for this time. A Brexit party. The Remain supporters would have been voting to Remain in an historic EU because it wasn't until the Europe wide election results were published that we knew that the two main parties in the EU were no longer in overall control.



I am not sure how many people who voted for a remain party in London knew that there was Frexit party in France. Most of the European voters want to change the way the EU is run. So if you have just blindly voted for a pro Remain party in the UK you don't actually know what you have voted for. We don't know how many people who voted Green or Lib Dem actually voted for Remain in Europe whereas with the Brexit party there is no doubt about what they voted for.

SpiderLegs

Fantastic results last night all round.

phillw

Cakeguts wrote: »

The leave supporters seem to have known what they were voting for this time.

Around 10% of the registered voters backed them, even if you accept that means they all want a WTO brexit then I don't think it's clear they know what that means in practice because in the run up to to vote there is still a lot of inaccurate representations about how that could work.

If anything the low turnout shows that a lot of people actually don't care whether we leave the EU or not.

Cakeguts wrote: »

The Remain supporters would have been voting to Remain in an historic EU because it wasn't until the Europe wide election results were published that we knew that the two main parties in the EU were no longer in overall control.

That is democracy for you, you don't know what parliament will look like when you cast your vote. That is why transferable voting would be much better.

Cakeguts wrote: »

We don't know how many people who voted Green or Lib Dem actually voted for Remain in Europe whereas with the Brexit party there is no doubt about what they voted for.

I'd say there is much more doubt about brexit party votes than for lib dem and green. There was just as clear message from those parties that a vote for them was a remain vote as brexit party was a leave vote. Whatever questions there are in the EU are dwarfed by the questions about what a brexit party brexit looks like.

Brexit party supporters are in a blind rage about not leaving, whipped up by farage, they aren't making considered choices.

SpiderLegs wrote: »

Fantastic results last night all round.

I'm kinda disappointed, I'm more disappointed by the people misrepresenting that it means anything.

Saying that votes for Brexit party are amazing considering they only became a party six weeks before the election are being dishonest. It would be like channel 4 claiming a success for Great British Bake Off viewing figures. Brexit party is basically the ukips who don't want to get outed by the racists in ukip that have become emboldened with the referendum result and are now outwardly racist. Same as the GBBO viewers now were mostly the BBC viewers that could bring themselves to watch Channel 4

borntobefree

Those voting for the Brexit Party voted for a party with no manifesto- I don’t know how they can possibly know what they voted for.

Nigel Farage supports Trump type politics - he wants to get rid of the NHS, etc. Claire Fox, who won a seat in the Birmingham region, used to run the Revolutionary Communist Party...

....who knows what they “Actually “ stand for ?

Let’s see how that pans out before the next GE...

What policies do you have Mr Farage? NHS?, Education?

phillw

borntobefree wrote: »

Those voting for the Brexit Party voted for a party with no manifesto- I don’t know how they can possibly know what they voted for.

They support Farage who stands for accepting money to manipulate the market for his hedge fund manager friends. It's clear that is what they voted for, although they may not understand the implications of it.