Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

borntobefree

Arklight wrote: »

However we spin it, the fact that 34% of people who voted, voted for Nigel Farage, paints a dismal picture of England.

Turnout was only 37% ish - so that’s only 10% ish: so I don’t think you can diss all English on that basis

SingleSue

phillw wrote: »

Have they voted at all previous EU elections? As turnout was higher than it's ever been then they are in a distinct minority if they had done and have protested at this point.

They have always voted in all things, never missed a vote be it EU, local or GE, dad even stood as a candidate in local elections when I was a child. It was a huge thing when I was growing up about always making your views known by voting and instilled in me to always, always make sure I vote.

They protested at the beginning of the month too in the local elections....

Edit as I have just seen your edit - They wouldn't listen to reason even when I pointed that fact out. It was less that they didn't get their own way and more that they view it as they have been let down after all the promises and a what is the point feeling, not that I agree with them. They used to be more objective when they were younger but have become less so with the advancing years.

phillw

Herzlos wrote: »

Because it transcends parties and the parties are split on it. There are Labour voters/MP's that want to leave and some that want to Remain, therefore a vote for Labour is unclear on the Brexit intention.

The majority of Labour supporters back remain, although I accept that a lot of those deserted the party. I don't really understand why anybody voted for labour or conservatives, they obviously didn't get the memo that this was a second referendum (MEPs may not stand or won't for very long if we leave). Essentially any party who didn't make a clear stand on the issue was a spoilt vote.

Herzlos wrote: »

We've now had one unclear and invalid referendum, and two unclear proxy referendums, we really need to just get on with sorting it properly by having a follow up referendum (as recommended by Farage and Reese-Mogg).

Right, but to have a referendum then brexit needs to become a party political issue.

SingleSue wrote: »

Edit as I have just seen your edit - They wouldn't listen to reason even when I pointed that fact out.

Not listening to reason is exactly why not everyone deserves their opinion to be represented. If people are quick to believe lies by someone who blames foreigners and says we can do better on our own & will ignore evidence to the contrary and demand that a long reaching decision made at a particular point in time is then irrevocably enacted then that is the real problem with democracy.

I actually think there should have been an upper limit on the age for the referendum vote. If we're excluding children who are just being born who will likely enter the work force at the time the effects of brexit are evident then we should also exclude those who will likely be dead at the same time.

Cutting off 18 years from expected lifespan puts the upper age at 62.

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

If voting were to be made mandatory we would also have to make producing ID mandatory, else how would you know who had not voted? Corbyn is totally against that, probably because it is mostly labour voters that so detest the democratic protest that they are willing to vote in more than one constituency.

Any evidence of Labour voters voting en masse in difference constituencies?

Cakeguts

The two main parties of the old EU parliament have lost overall control. In France the French National Rally has the most seats. There was even a Frexit party.



People who voted Remain in the referendum voted for the EU as it was then. It is not going to be that EU going forward because the two main parties now have to find alliances if they want to pass anymore of the silly EU laws.



People who live in London who voted for the Remain parties appear to be now out of touch with not only the rest of the UK but most of Europe.



I am not sure what the says about the London Remainers.



I think that there are a fair number of Remain voters who are looking at the EU through rose tinted specs that are not being looked through by the rest of the UK or even in most of Europe.

Thrugelmir

phillw wrote: »

The majority of Labour supporters back remain,

Has anyone actually asked them? Until Corbyn comes off the fence we'll never know.

phillw

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

If voting were to be made mandatory we would also have to make producing ID mandatory, else how would you know who had not voted?

You're confusing two separate issues. Making voting mandatory means that everyone has had their name ticked off, they know who is registered to vote & at the end of the day there are a lot of people who didn't turn up.

If you know you're gong to be fined if you don't turn up then I think asking someone to turn up and impersonate you is an acceptable way to cast your vote. Although I would remove the requirement to turn up and allow voting electronically. The chances that someone will be able to impersonate you and you happen to not vote is going to be so low that it's not worth worrying about. If a "person" ends up voting twice then it's a sign that the process isn't working. I would also spread voting over multiple days and give a report on how parties are doing, so you can make tactical decisions. The idea that tactical voting is somehow wrong is absurd, although going to single transferable voting would be fairer and remove the requirement.

Making sure that everyone is registered to vote is a bigger hurdle, people often don't register as a way to claim single person discount on the council tax where they reside. That is something that should be dealt with anyway.

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Corbyn is totally against that, probably because it is mostly labour voters that so detest the democratic protest that they are willing to vote in more than one constituency.

The whole ID card thing is pretty toxic because it makes people think of living in a police state (we won two world wars right?). It evokes the same kind of irrational thinking as suggesting ditching sterling for the euro. The vote against them was similar same across all parties.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/dec/21/idcards.immigrationpolicy3

I'd like to know how you know so much about electoral fraud. Maybe you should have advised the review which found very low numbers https://www.ncpolitics.uk/2016/12/how-big-a-problem-is-voting-fraud-in-uk-elections/

Herzlos

I'm not sure it says anything about London Remainers. Our role in Europe wouldn't change, and the direction of Europe won't change much with some minor changes in power balance. We'd still be in and helping steer things. If we leave, then we get to put up with whatever Europe does.

Herzlos

phillw wrote: »

The majority of Labour supporters back remain, although I accept that a lot of those deserted the party. I don't really understand why anybody voted for labour or conservatives, they obviously didn't get the memo that this was a second referendum (MEPs may not stand or won't for very long if we leave). Essentially any party who didn't make a clear stand on the issue was a spoilt vote.

That's why it's no good as a windguage on Brexit - some voters will have protested, some still believe Farage, and some long term thinkers who think we'll still be in the EU at least want someone who'll represent them well. If we stay in the EU, does anyone thing Farage is suddenly going to start doing his job? Is he going to suddenly stop having the 2nd lowest attendance for an MEP?

Right, but to have a referendum then brexit needs to become a party political issue.

Sure, we need parties to get behind it to get it started, but parties must not be tainting the ballot papers.

phillw

Herzlos wrote: »

Sure, we need parties to get behind it to get it started, but parties must not be tainting the ballot papers.

I'm not sure what you mean by tainting the ballot papers.

I think the ship has sailed for ballot paper tainting. Aaron Banks secured vast sums of money from dubious sources to fund the leave vote, we know what type of brexit that will happen if it's enacted. The pay masters will want their pound of flesh. I still don't understand why people are so keen to pay to be worse off in every way.

Brexit party was polling at 37%, so quite a few people deserted them on the day.