Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

LHW99

Not sure the Green vote can be unequivocally corralled into the Remain camp, as they will have many who have supported them long term for their environmental stance, which is certainly their main strand of appeal.

StevieJ

LHW99 wrote: »

Not sure the Green vote can be unequivocally corralled into the Remain camp, as they will have many who have supported them long term for their environmental stance, which is certainly their main strand of appeal.

The Greens capaigned on a Remain ticket in these elections.

The Greens have launched their European elections campaign, urging voters to back their message of "yes to Europe" and "no to climate chaos".

https://news.sky.com/story/green-wave-predicted-as-party-launches-eu-elections-campaign-11714410

Moby

BikingBud wrote: »

After PhilW's suggestion:


Democracy is broken (Parliament has spectacularly failed to deliver the wishes of the electorate). Therefore one has to ask why more of a broken system would be any better.

The failings of the party political system within Parliament needs to be addressed especially where there is clear conflict between what Parliament has been tasked with and what they may decide from their privileged and self serving perspective.

What is the value of that currently flawed and failed democratic process unless it is rebuilt from basic principles and the confidence of the electorate is restored? The system needs rebuilding via electoral reform.

Is that easier for you to understand?

Surely parliament is currently reflecting the divisions within the country but for the sake of discussion what's your solution? ....I've always supported the principle of proportional representation...it seems to work well in Europe. It forces parties to compromise and ensures people living in a constituency where their candidate doesn't stand a chance get some representation through proportional allocation of seats?

Enterprise_1701C

If voting were to be made mandatory we would also have to make producing ID mandatory, else how would you know who had not voted? Corbyn is totally against that, probably because it is mostly labour voters that so detest the democratic protest that they are willing to vote in more than one constituency.

Arklight

Moby wrote: »

Strong Brexit (UKIP and BXP) 34%

Strong remain 40% (Chuk, Green, Lib Dem. Plaid, SNP)

Conservatives 9%

Labour 15%....


Very difficult to read much from a 37% turnout.
Pleasantly surprised that the populist surge on the continent hasn't materialised though. The Greens have done particularly well in Germany and France! A big win for the socialists in Spain, with the far right going backwards, and the news from the Netherlands is also poor for the extreme right.

However we spin it, the fact that 34% of people who voted, voted for Nigel Farage, paints a dismal picture of England.

phillw

BikingBud wrote: »

Democracy is broken (Parliament has spectacularly failed to deliver the wishes of the electorate). Therefore one has to ask why more of a broken system would be any better.

Failing to deliver brexit is a good example of democracy working.

There was a rough 50:50 split of the vote to leave but without defining what that meant, it's easy to point out that at least a million people could have believed what they were told that we wouldn't leave the single market, we'd get a better deal than being in the EU and £150 million a week would go to the NHS.

When that was proved to be a cynical manipulation of the electorate then the next GE gave a result where the Conservatives were unable to railroad through leaving.

The politicians claiming the brexit party result is a clear mandate should be very careful they don't get sued for misconduct in a public office as spreading disinformation is a clear breach of their duty

BikingBud wrote: »

What is the value of that currently flawed and failed democratic process unless it is rebuilt from basic principles and the confidence of the electorate is restored? The system needs rebuilding via electoral reform.

I agree we need electoral reform, the first past the post system in england, scotland and wales favors the conservatives and led to the dreadful referendum in the first place. The general election would also have been an even bigger failure for the conservatives and so the support in parliament for passing brexit would have been even lower.

BikingBud wrote: »

Is that easier for you to understand?

I understand it very well, but my brain is not clouded by xenophobic rage for not leaving the EU. This is what is causing you so much distress. If you were able to unpartially experience events then you would see how interesting the result is & how impossible it makes leaving the EU.

About 1/3 support Brexit at any cost, 1/3 support remain,1/3 support BRINO. Nobody who wants to leave on WTO terms can be pursuaded to compromise with either of the other two groups.

I find it disappointing that with a low turn out there is still no clear way forward for brexit. If brexit party had considerably more than 50% of a high turnout then that would have been a mandate that I could live with.

SingleSue

phillw wrote: »

2014 turnout was 35.4% and 2009 was 34.5% I'm not saying it's great, but I think it's the highest ever. Anyone claiming that people stayed home as a protest vote are either wrong or lying.

I'm not wrong or lying, very frustrated maybe but my parents decided not to vote as their form of a protest. They voted leave, feel they have been let down and now can't be bothered with it all.

It led to an interesting discussion as they always instilled in me the importance of my public duty in voting, mind you, politics and discussion about politics are now off the table as our views no longer agree (I voted to remain).

Herzlos

Malthusian wrote: »

Yes it is. I'm surprised you're in favour of this blatant transphobia.

It is society telling you that your gender was decided at birth, that no ambiguity is permitted - people have to know your gender before they've even seen your face - and it's illegal to even acknowledge that gender may be fluid through a child's name. It stamps the label "Male" or "Female" on you at birth. There is no other point to such a law whatsoever.

In German, all words have a gender, which determines the exact wording of ancillary words (like "the"). I'm rusty in German so I'm not sure how it applies to people, but it may be necessary to use the appropriate pronoun.


This law just means that one of the names has a clear gender assigned to it, it doesn't prevent anyone changing gender later though I'm not sure how it will affect the gender fluid/neutral or if that's even the reasoning.
Conversely, Germany allows a third gender on passports for those that don't identify as male/female (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-intersex-third-gender-identity-passport-lgbt-rights-a8706696.html) so it's not an anti-trans issue.





I do love how people are happy to ignore Brexit Party candidates who don't believe in trans people, and think gays should be banned, but are happy to pounce on anything similar coming out of the EU without any real understanding of the underlying details.

phillw

SingleSue wrote: »

I'm not wrong or lying, very frustrated maybe but my parents decided not to vote as their form of a protest.

Have they voted at all previous EU elections? As turnout was higher than it's ever been then they are in a distinct minority if they had done and have protested at this point.

They've shot themselves in the foot, because they had a chance to protest by voting for the brexit party.

There was absolutely no risk at voting for the brexit party if you're a leave supporter, because the MEPs may not ever take their seats. All leave supporters should have voted brexit party.

If they can't be bothered to engage in democracy because they didn't get their own way then I think it shows that not everyone deserves a vote.

Herzlos

phillw wrote: »

How is supporting the most damaging change to the UK in our lifetimes, not a party political issue?

Because it transcends parties and the parties are split on it. There are Labour voters/MP's that want to leave and some that want to Remain, therefore a vote for Labour is unclear on the Brexit intention. The same applies for all but the Brexit party, which has no policies whatsoever.


To get a clear idea of what Brexit should involve, we need to remove all of the "would never vote for Corbyn/May/Farage/Cable/Sturgeon whatever happened" votes and focus on the question we actually want an answer to: "what sort of Brexit do you want?".


We've now had one unclear and invalid referendum, and two unclear proxy referendums, we really need to just get on with sorting it properly by having a follow up referendum (as recommended by Farage and Reese-Mogg).