Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

ToxicWomble

If you don’t like the democratic society you live in then feel free to move to a country that doesn’t give their citizens the freedoms that you enjoy. Doesn’t really matter whether you accept the result or not, it’s the one that the majority of people who bothered to vote opted for.
The fact that the politicians are actively obstructing and betraying the democratic process is the reason I will never again vote for either of the main 2 parties

Arklight

Cakeguts wrote: »

However from what I am experiencing personally the people who voted Remain are also great supporters of man made climate change even though none of them understand the scientific data and all of their information is based on what someone else said.

97% of scientists who have studied climate change say the 400 billion tonnes of CO2 we have pumped into the atmosphere in the last 100 years is directly correlated to the unprecedented climate change over the same period.

https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm

What you are saying is that people should ignore all expert opinion on a particular topic because they are not themselves expert in that field, and almost all the people who are, are somehow not to be trusted for a reason you can't really define, but appears to have an awful lot to do with your own prejudice.

The reason we vaccinate ourselves, drink clean water rather than water polluted by sewage, put on sun cream to not get skin cancer, send robots to mars, and practically everything else modern society calls an achievement, is because we accept that sometimes it is beneficial to listen to people who clearly know what they are talking about, rather than people who clearly don't.

I'm going to continue to not die of the plague, not watch my kids' spines twist agonisingly by polio, and not drink water dosed with human faeces, not because I am a microbiologist or an immunologist, but because I am smart enough to know what they are, how they train, and decide for myself their advice is worth heeding.

Good luck with your anti climate change study, I am sure it's the breath of fresh air that science has been waiting for. I'm not sure how well you're going to do in your defence though.

phillw

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Nor will remaining for that matter. If anything many public services will continue to degenerate further if we do.

It will accelerate when we leave the EU, that was known before the referendum with many leave voters saying they were prepared to leave at any cost.

Thrugelmir wrote: »

And socialists do? You've a very blinkered view of what many people are actually like.

The conservatives believe they do and will tax the rich to achieve it, that is why they say it will be a disaster if Labour are elected. It's delusional to think that a post EU conservative government will treat people the poor any better when they have less tax income and refuse to raise taxes for the rich.

Arklight wrote: »

What you are saying is that people should ignore all expert opinion on a particular topic because they are not themselves expert in that field,

We are sick of experts telling us the truth. We want unicorns and a brexit which isn't a disaster (you're more likely to get a unicorn).

ToxicWomble wrote: »

If you don’t like the democratic society you live in then feel free to move to a country that doesn’t give their citizens the freedoms that you enjoy. Doesn’t really matter whether you accept the result or not, it’s the one that the majority of people who bothered to vote opted for.

A majority which is a margin of error and it very much looks like if you held that vote again then the result would be different. This causes a problem because referendums aren't about winning vs losing, they aren't even binding. In switzerland the courts invalidated a 2016 referendum because the people were misinformed.

With brexit the people were misinformed, we know that because aaron banks wrote a book where he said he did that is what he did.

Brexit is going to affect the leave voters worse, I want a confirmatory vote just so you can't weasle out of responsibility when it all goes bad and you try to say you didn't know what it was you were voting for. But if you are against it then I expect you'll be happy with whatever Brexit In Name Only you get.

Enterprise_1701C

Herzlos wrote: »

What's actually wrong with where it's going? What would you have done differently?

I was happy with the common market, it was a good idea. It does not need the political unity, it does not need protectionism, it does not need a common currency, it's own army etc.

If it had remained as a common market, and purely that, then it would have been great.

It is supposed to include freedom of movement, but what I have never understood is that pre the eu, even just the common market, we used to nip over to France on a day passport. That stopped once we were in the eec. That is totally illogical.

Arklight

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

I was happy with the common market, it was a good idea. It does not need the political unity, it does not need protectionism, it does not need a common currency, it's own army etc.

If it had remained as a common market, and purely that, then it would have been great.

It is supposed to include freedom of movement, but what I have never understood is that pre the eu, even just the common market, we used to nip over to France on a day passport. That stopped once we were in the eec. That is totally illogical.

The Europeans want European Unity because it has stopped the endless wars that plagued Europe for centuries. You might not want that but if you want the benefits of that (no wars,a prosperous stable and democratic trading bloc on our doorstep), then to some extent you have to accept the fact that the UK is a minority member.

They have given us huge opt outs over much of the European project we didn't want to be in, but apparently this isn't enough.

Thrugelmir

It will accelerate when we leave the EU, that was known before the referendum with many leave voters saying they were prepared to leave at any cost.

Precisely the reason that some people voted in the way they did. Read what's written. Don't simply fire off a meaningless response that fits your agenda.

The conservatives believe they do and will tax the rich to achieve it, that is why they say it will be a disaster if Labour are elected. It's delusional to think that a post EU conservative government will treat people the poor any better when they have less tax income and refuse to raise taxes for the rich.

Again you miss my point. You'd make a good politician. Simply ignoring reality to paint your own picture.

Cakeguts

Arklight wrote: »

97% of scientists who have studied climate change say the 400 billion tonnes of CO2 we have pumped into the atmosphere in the last 100 years is directly correlated to the unprecedented climate change over the same period.

https://skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm

What you are saying is that people should ignore all expert opinion on a particular topic because they are not themselves expert in that field, and almost all the people who are, are somehow not to be trusted for a reason you can't really define, but appears to have an awful lot to do with your own prejudice.

The reason we vaccinate ourselves, drink clean water rather than water polluted by sewage, put on sun cream to not get skin cancer, send robots to mars, and practically everything else modern society calls an achievement, is because we accept that sometimes it is beneficial to listen to people who clearly know what they are talking about, rather than people who clearly don't.

I'm going to continue to not die of the plague, not watch my kids' spines twist agonisingly by polio, and not drink water dosed with human faeces, not because I am a microbiologist or an immunologist, but because I am smart enough to know what they are, how they train, and decide for myself their advice is worth heeding.

Good luck with your anti climate change study, I am sure it's the breath of fresh air that science has been waiting for. I'm not sure how well you're going to do in your defence though.

What happens if the 3% who say it doesn't are correct and the 97% are wrong?


This has happened before. If climate change scientist are presented with information that doesn't fit their government paid grant work they either ignore it or try to get the person with the different information to be excluded from future jobs.


Regarding the plague. You probably are going to die from the plague or a visit to hospital.While the snowflakes have been bickering about climate change and brexit they have not paid any attention to the medical crisis that is taking place right now.

We have got antibiotic resistance to many hospital infections. All we need is the plague with and antibiotic resistant bacteria and it will make climate change so insignificant that no one will ever think about it. We also have a problem with anitfungal resistance. There are now killer fungal diseases for which we have no cure. The combination of antifungal and antibiotic means that in only a few years people will not be able to have any operations for anything.



I don't actually care about climate change because I know that the scientist that you are so fond of following are saying that we have this problem now not in 12 years time. Now.



https://www.cdc.gov/fungal/antifungal-resistance.html


https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/20-09-2017-the-world-is-running-out-of-antibiotics-who-report-confirms



Next to this climate change and Brexit are nothing in my opinion.



There is nothing that leaving the EU can do that is nearly as bad as what antifungal resistance and antibiotic resistance can do to the world population.



As Leave won the vote lets Leave the EU and concentrate on more pressing problems like the ones above.

melanzana

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

I was happy with the common market, it was a good idea. It does not need the political unity, it does not need protectionism, it does not need a common currency, it's own army etc.

If it had remained as a common market, and purely that, then it would have been great.

It is supposed to include freedom of movement, but what I have never understood is that pre the eu, even just the common market, we used to nip over to France on a day passport. That stopped once we were in the eec. That is totally illogical.

No it didn't stop at all, what are you smoking . Can you not nip over and back now if you wish?

Freedom of movement involves those moving to WORK or those in a position to support themselves outside of social supports. There is a three month rule out there that states you can be deported under Free Movement if you cannot support yourself and your family within that time.

But UK chose not to impose that on EU migrants under FM. So where does the blame lie?

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

What happens if the 3% who say it doesn't are correct and the 97% are wrong?

The 97% eat humble pie and our offspring don't endure a destroyed planet.

Just because a lot of people say one thing doesn't make it correct. If they are all using the manipulated data that is an estimate and the 3% arent then you can guess what is coming next.

So what's your basis for thinking all of the 97% are wrong? What do you know that they don't?

But really, even if they are wrong, what's the problem with looking after the environment? It's nice to walk down the street without choking on fumes, or going to the beach without raw sewage being piped into the sea? Looking after the environment is literally win-win.

BobQ

BikingBud wrote: »

So both true then?

I did not mention or infer why or how, or apportion any blame, just mentioned that a perspective that we have had a great 40 yrs was somewhat false when you consider our recent history and the current financial situation we find ourselves in.

It is true that we have built up corporate and personal debt in recent years but that had nothing to do with the EU. The US were not members of the EU but built up high levels of debt.

Overall, 40 years of EU/EEC membership has built a more prosperous economy even allowing for the austerity many nations have experienced..

Similarly, if things continue to be poor and austerity runs on we cannot blame Brexit alone. I trust you are happy with that assessment as well

Brexit has undermined the value of the GBP and will in the short term make us poorer. It is self inflicted damage.

But of course once we are out of the EU other factors will come into play including uncertain supply chains and the impact of structural economic change, such as the wiping out of many UK industries. These can work in our favour or to our detriment.

But I agree that we will not be able to blame the EU for all and everything that goes wrong and the damage done by Brexit will fade.