Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

melanzana

Things have been so peaceful and calm since the recent recess. It is almost normal again now.

Time to forget about the B word and just live our lives without this awful vista that many seem to welcome, but have no clue or backup as to how it will work out with UK a little island in a sea of mutual economic activity.

But it is the immigrants I suppose. Sigh. They are the nemesis. Mistakenly IMV, because EU migrants are welcome. Non EU migrants need a visa.

Down to the wire again end of October so. When our reps return from their hard earned break having decided nothing, again!

I doubt Brexit will happen. The local and EU elections are useless as a barometer. GE is the only one. And that is undemocratic with FPTP. But it suits them I suppose to pretend it is the will of the people.

BobQ

cogito wrote: »

When we’re we allowed a vote to join the EU.

1970 - We had a General Election and elected a Conservative Government led by the most Europhile PM we ever had (Heath) who took us into the EEC.

1975 - We had a referendum promised by Wilson on whether or not to remain. At that time the direction of the EEC was clearly towards policies of pooled sovereignty, tax harmonisation, free trade, common standards etc. Wilson told Parliament that we had a choice to make of losing some sovereignty but gaining economically. Ultimately he was right.

Herzlos

movilogo wrote: »

Remain voters don't have a clue what remain means since 1975

I wasn't even born in 1975, so I can't comment, sorry. But now, ask any 10 remainers what remaining means and you'll get mostly the same.answer. ask 10 leavers and get 10 different answers.

Even the 2 main leavers in the cabinet can't agree whether to go for zero tariffs to kill of local industry bit get cheap foreign stuff, or whether to keep tariffs high to protect industry and drive up prices. There's no consensus on anything. No-one knows what brexit will look like and some like Farage don't seem to have any opinion on what it should look like.

BobQ

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Wilson was PM in 1975, Labour sold us out as per normal.

Talk about re-writing history. Heath took us into the EEC, Wilson gave the country a referendum. How is that selling us out.

The real changes that you do not like happened when the EU was formed in 1992. That was Thatcher's doing in negotiating the Maastrict Treaty which Major approved.

In 1975 there was great unity in all parties on Remaining. The opposition as usual were those on the far left and far right. Seem familiar?

Cakeguts

Takedap wrote: »

The thing about science is that it doesn't "care" whether you believe in it or not. Things still happen. If you want to debunk a scientific argument, then you have to do it with another scientific argument. You can't just say "I don't believe it because somebody might be making money out of it.


The whole point of the scientific method is that there are no secrets. It is all put up for peer review by other scientists. Your sources, findings, methods etc are all published. If you find it odd that most of the research results in data is in agreement then maybe that says more about you than it does about the science.


If you have a better scientific theory regarding global climate models then feel free to publish it. It will then be subjected to the same level of analysis & criticism as any of the other available studies.

You can't debunk it because you can't find a climate change model that is correct to start with. That is the problem. It is all tied up with the industry of climate change and how many people are paid by governments to fly (yes fly) all over the world to discuss it. It is also tied up with carbon trading.



There is a vested interest by government paid scientists and politcians who are doing very nicely at the tax payers expense out of there being man made climate change. No one who is working in climate change is going to rock the boat just as no one who works for the EU is going to support Brexit.



However from what I am experiencing personally the people who voted Remain are also great supporters of man made climate change even though none of them understand the scientific data and all of their information is based on what someone else said. I get the same comments from them almost word for word about Remain and climate change. I just find that odd because it feels as if they are not making up their own mind but are believing without checking something that is being fed to them from somewhere.



What I object to is that they then tell me that my opinion is wrong but they don't know what they are supporting is only opinions not fact so how can their opinion based on the opinion of someone else be any better than my opinion which just happens to be different mostly because it isn't based on someone else's opinion. They then tell me how to think on both subjects in the same way.

LHW99

As I read it Cakeguts, you disagree with the notion of "man made climate change".
Evidence in terms of the melting of ice, rising of sea levels and increasing weather turbulence indicates the climat is changing. Whether or not due to man's activities, they are the only part of the equation we have control over. If we do something about them, we may reduce the degree of change experienced, so IMO its worth trying.
IMO its nothing to do with Brexit either way.

melanzana

I think the mask has slipped.

The only people advocating a Hard Brexit are the usual suspects with one liners and no substance to back it up at all.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that many people would just like to crack on as we are, sort out our own problems and invest our own money in things that need sorting, like education, the police, and tackling abject poverty etc.

Being out of the EU will not sort that. I think leaving the EU is a cover up for our own failings on the ground quite frankly. Must have someone or something to blame it on, and that just happens to be the EU right now.

Honestly when you think about it, it is a free pass for the abject failure of our politicians on a national level to look after the UK.

Herzlos

The models are always sort of inaccurate, that's true, but 97% of relevant scientists believe it's a problem. I don't need to understand the science myself to know it's an issue. I can dig into it further but I'm pretty confident I'll side with the 97% and not the 3%.



Brexit is fairly similar - pretty much all of the experts and scientists regard it as a bad idea, and I'm happy enough to agree with them because my understanding of it matches what I get of theirs.


Provide me with some peer reviewed journals on a subject and I should be pretty happy to agree with the consensus. Brexiteers and climate change deniers seem to be very similar in their disregard for evidence coupled with a love of fake news.



Even if you don't believe in man made climate change, fossil fuels and things based on oil like plastic are finite, or have obvious ill-effects to the environment, so we should be reducing them anyway. We don't want to run out of coal or petrol, we don't want to kill off the ocean with plastic straws, and we want city air to be safe to breathe. Is anything of that unreasonable?

phillw

Tromking wrote: »

This whole post-democratic Brexit era has uncovered a great deal of the populace who view the nation state as a tad passe and are seemingly seeing comfort in being led by a bunch of political appointees with little or no democratic accountability.

Yes, 52% of people who voted in the referendum for leave want that.

The 48% of people who voted to remain in the democratic EU are unhappy with the situation.

melanzana wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I suspect that many people would just like to crack on as we are, sort out our own problems and invest our own money in things that need sorting, like education, the police, and tackling abject poverty etc.

You're wrong, we could have done those things before. Being in the EU was a net positive, so we'll have less money when we leave because it will have economic consequences. The lie about the £350 million a week was that they knew that the money we contribute would just evaporate as soon as we leave anyway.

The conservatives don't want to tackle poverty, they believe that poor people deserve to be poor. Your only hope is that the conservatives completely destroy themselves (as they deserve to do now).

buglawton

melanzana wrote: »

I think the mask has slipped.

The only people advocating a Hard Brexit are the usual suspects with one liners and no substance to back it up at all.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that many people would just like to crack on as we are, sort out our own problems and invest our own money in things that need sorting, like education, the police, and tackling abject poverty etc.

Being out of the EU will not sort that. I think leaving the EU is a cover up for our own failings on the ground quite frankly. Must have someone or something to blame it on, and that just happens to be the EU right now.

Honestly when you think about it, it is a free pass for the abject failure of our politicians on a national level to look after the UK.

Was much impressed with your previous post now trying to make sense of this one.

I voted out due to a deep feeling that the direction of travel was wrong. My vote happened to coincide with the majority. But what in fact happened was, the political tide went out and we discovered that almost none of our politicians had bothered to invest in a bathing suit.

And now the EU leadership seems to be revelling in taking advantage of the UK's naked situation.