Brexit the economy and house prices part 7: Brexit Harder

ukcarper

andrewf75 wrote: »

Agree, but my point is in response to adindas point that Camerons warning that brexit would mean we would leave the single market was somehow the ndisputed definition of brexit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI5A1Gd5D0

gfplux

andrewf75 wrote: »

Agree with that. It’s the one thing I would criticise the EU for in their approach.

It would make sense to be discussing the future relationship now as well, athough thinking about it I’m not sure how it would help. The key problem remains the incompatibility of wanting out of the CU/SM and not wanting a border in Ireland.

If we were remaining a member until that was cleared up rather than leaving with a backstop, we’d be having to put up new MEPs and be part of the new budgets etc all of which neither side wants. At least dealing with exit first keeps things moving.

Sorry Andrew but that is an amazing post.

What don’t you understand about the
Withdrawal/transition/political understanding DEAL

The 26 pages of the political understanding that forms part of the deal has the following heading on page 1

QUOTE
POLITICAL DECLARATION SETTING OUT THE FRAMEWORK FOR THE FUTURE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM
END QUOTE

You will find the 26 pages here.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758556/22_November_Draft_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_EU_and_the_UK__agreed_at_negotiators__level_and_agreed_in_principle_at_political_level__subject_to_endorsement_by_Leaders.pdf

PS
You might not know that there are civil servants on both sides engaged in putting the foundations together for their political masters of the trade deal. So that in April the trade talks can get off to a quick start.

Edit New link for document
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.CI.2019.066.01.0185.01.ENG&toc=OJ:C:2019:066I:TOC

Dippypud

kabayiri wrote: »

A negotiation framework where 27 face up against 1 is hardly ever going to work. (Maybe Germany is the only notable exception)

I think the way it should work is that the UK goes into a transition phase (however long), during which it is technically "out", but where practical arrangements on customs and people movement continue.

During this time the parties either agree on longer term relations, or re-entry on agreed terms at the end of the window.

If we were actually "out" during this transition window, it would neuter those trying to kill the process in parliament.

I don't think we should be a long term lukewarm member of the EU. The re-entry terms above would clarify where both parties actually saw the UK's role.

That's basically May's deal ...

andrewf75

ukcarper wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUI5A1Gd5D0

And thrre are many others showing the opposite.

Brexit means nothing more than leaving the EU.

ukcarper

andrewf75 wrote: »

And thrre are many others showing the opposite.

Brexit means nothing more than leaving the EU.

I think it was pretty clear by referendum that leave meant leaving single market most of other links given in past were before campaigning really got underway.

I voted remain because I though we would be leaving fully, something never mentioned is how many remain voters might have voted leave if they though leaving meant some of the very soft brexits now being put forward.

Dippypud

gfplux wrote: »

Sorry Andrew but that is an amazing post.

What don’t you understand about the
Withdrawal/transition/political understanding DEAL

The 26 pages of the political understanding that forms part of the deal has the following heading on page 1

QUOTE
POLITICAL DECLARATION SETTING OUT THE FRAMEWORK FOR THE FUTURE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND THE UNITED KINGDOM
END QUOTE

You will find the 26 pages here.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758556/22_November_Draft_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_EU_and_the_UK__agreed_at_negotiators__level_and_agreed_in_principle_at_political_level__subject_to_endorsement_by_Leaders.pdf

PS
You might not know that there are civil servants on both sides engaged in putting the foundations together for their political masters of the trade deal. So that in April the trade talks can get off to a quick start.

Linky no worky
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andrewf75

ukcarper wrote: »

I think it was pretty clear by referendum that leave meant leaving single market most of other links given in past were before campaigning really got underway.

I voted remain because I though we would be leaving fully, something never mentioned is how many remain voters might have voted leave if they though leaving meant some of the very soft brexits now being put forward.

Interesting. But still your interpretation. Ultimately all that matters is what was on the ballot paper, leave or remain.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

A negotiation framework where 27 face up against 1 is hardly ever going to work. (Maybe Germany is the only notable exception)

I think the way it should work is that the UK goes into a transition phase (however long), during which it is technically "out", but where practical arrangements on customs and people movement continue.

During this time the parties either agree on longer term relations, or re-entry on agreed terms at the end of the window.

If we were actually "out" during this transition window, it would neuter those trying to kill the process in parliament.

I don't think we should be a long term lukewarm member of the EU. The re-entry terms above would clarify where both parties actually saw the UK's role.

What does being technically out mean? How does that differ to being in whilst negotiating what out means?


Beyond the being technically out (which we are, sort of), I don't see the difference to what we do now.

ukcarper

andrewf75 wrote: »

Interesting. But still your interpretation. Ultimately all that matters is what was on the ballot paper, leave or remain.

I think that there are 4 reasons people voted leave

FOM, ECJ, fee and abllty of U.K. to make its own free trade agreements, probably it that order so I would have thought that at least some of them should be honoured.

BobQ

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Spain get plenty of special treatment. They get away with blockading the border with Gibraltar, supposedly within the eu, they get away with fishing above their quotas, they get away with trying to tell British boats that they are in Spanish waters when they are docked in Gibraltar, have not noticed any admonishments from the eu. And we are supposedly still within the eu, so all these could be classed as internal eu matters.

The eu would probably treat them quite differently if the above is anything to go by.

You do realise that Gibraltar is outside the Schengen Area and Spain is inside it. Why do you think the EU checks people travelling from UK to France or Germany?