Share Dealing Discussion Area

sabretoothtigger

black_taxi wrote: »

is this equation-right

using max isa allowance(investment trust -stock an shares)

10200 a year

if it gained 11% ave a year

in 24 years it would be worth 1 million

11% ave growth without loss would be gigantic performance. The FTSE100 is 3% average. Your first year isa would become well over 100k in 24 years at that rate so a total of 1 million would be right

£1,156,815 and 73 pence to be precise or 372% growth


The more realistic 3% growth after inflation loss would after 24 years of compound growth be about £361,684 and 49p
which is still nice for putting in £244,800 (48% total growth)

In 24 years 10k wont amount to as much just like a rolls royce used to cost 10k

[B]Monday December 14[/B] 

INTERIMS 
O Twelve Estates 

FINALS 
RWS Holdings 

IMSS 
Whitbread 

EGMS 
Ascent Resources 

AGMS 
Baronsmead VCT, Baronsmead VCT 2, Kopane Diamond Developments, Pan African Resources, Starvest, Uranium Resources 

[B]Tuesday December 15[/B] 

INTERIMS 
Private and Commercial 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
PayPoint 

QUARTERLY PAYMENT DATE 
Cryptologic Ld 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Consumer Price Index (GER) 
Empires State Manufactacturing (US) 
Industrial Production (US)   
Producer Price Index (US)   

FINALS 
Renovo Group 

AGMS 
Aisi Realty Public, Baqus, Connaught, Energybuild, Firestone Diamonds, Imperial Innovations, JPMorgan Chinese Inv Trust, Octopus Eclipse VCT 1, Rubicon Software, Tristel, Vietnam Property Fund Ltd., Watford Leisure 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
World Careers Network 

[B]Wednesday December 16[/B] 

INTERIMS 
Kesa Electricals, Polar Cap Technology Trust 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Unilever 

INTERIM EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Atkins (WS), Babcock International Group, Cropper (James), Halfords Group, Intelek, KCOM Group, London and Associated Properties, Mitie Group, Northumbrian Water Group, red24, Telford Homes, United Utilities Group 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Consumer Price Index (EU) 
Consumer Price Index (US)   
Current Account (US) 
FOMC Interest Rate (US) 
Housing Starts (US) 

IMSS 
Punch Taverns 

AGMS 
Advance UK Trust, Charteris, Fidelity Special Values, Henderson Global Property Companies Ltd., Nautical Petroleum, Punch Taverns, Standard Life Equity Income Trust 

TRADING ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Petrofac Ltd 

UK ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Unemployment Rate (09:30) 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Fidelity Asian Values 

FINAL EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Alternative Networks, Carluccio's, Carr's Milling Industries, Ciref, Downing Protected VCT IV, Downing Protected VCT V, Forest Support Services, Marston's, OMG, Scottish Oriental Smaller Companies Trust 

[B]Thursday December 17[/B] 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Man Group, UBC Media Group 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Initial Jobless Claims (US) 
Leading Indicators (US)  
Philadelphia Fed Index (US) 

FINALS 
Advanced Power Components 

EGMS 
Irish Life and Permanent 

AGMS 
British Assets Trust, British Empire Securities & General Trust, Leed Petroleum, Norseman Gold, Templar Minerals 

TRADING ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Travis Perkins 

UK ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Internet Retail Sales (09:30) 
Retail Sales (09:30) 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
ING Global Real Estate Securities, Narborough Plant 

[B]Friday December 18[/B] 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Establishment Inv Trust, Ferrexpo, Foresight 4 VCT, Hansa Trust, Hansa Trust 'A' Shares, Investec, Montanaro UK Smaller Companies Investment Trust, Rensburg AIM VCT, Straight, Young & Co's Brewery 'A' 

QUARTERLY PAYMENT DATE 
M&G Equity Inv Trust Income Shares 

FINALS 
Carnival 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Producer Price Index (GER) 

EGMS 
Global MENA Financial Assets Ltd. 

AGMS 
Altona [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3174321&username=&ac=#"]Energy[/URL], Cheerful Scout, JPMorgan Japanese Inv Trust, Keystone Inv Trust, Palmaris Capital, Sportingbet, Urals Energy Public Company, Victoria Oil & Gas 

UK ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Public Sector Finances (09:30) 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Air Partner, Baqus, Charteris, Jarvis Securities, JPMorgan Chinese Inv Trust, JPMorgan Income & Growth Inv Trust Income Shares, JPMorgan Japanese Inv Trust, Lok'n Store Group, Mouchel Group, Standard Life Equity Income Trust, Trading Emissions, Tristel

xyy123

sabretoothtigger wrote: »

11% ave growth without loss would be gigantic performance. The FTSE100 is 3% average.[/code]

Where did you get the 3% figure?? Or is that returns after inflation?

Your figures are right though. £10,200 investment at beginning of year 1 at 11% pa for 24 years, adding £10,200 beginning of every year equals £1,156,816 at end of year 24. £1M is breached at end of year 23 (which is 24 years investment really).

sabretoothtigger

Where did you get the 3% figure?? Or is that returns after inflation?

Its just old figure I remembered. IF you go visit ft.com you can possibly see for yourself, it doesnt include dividends and I attribute that against inflation, management costs and any tax so its not strictly accurate and probably slightly conservative

[B]Monday December 21[/B] 

INTERIMS 
KSK Power Ventur 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
First Property Group, London & Stamford Property, Octopus AIM VCT 

FINALS 
Nasstar 

EGMS 
Cairn Energy 

AGMS 
DCD Media, Pathfinder Prop, Proactis 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Smart (J) & Co. 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Chicago Fed National Activity Index (US) (13:30) 
Convenience Store Sales (JPN) 

[B]Tuesday December 22[/B] 

QUARTERLY PAYMENT DATE 
Frontline 

UK ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Current Account (09:30) 
Gross Domestic Product (09:30)   

EGMS 
Air China, Orpak Systems 

AGMS 
Artilium, Baobab Resources, Boomerang Plus, Independent Resources, Sinclair Pharma, Tanzanite One, Weatherly International 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Invesco English & International Trust, JPMorgan Elect Managed [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3187960&username=sabrehbos&ac=211409#"]Growth[/URL] Shares, Keystone Inv Trust, Lowland Investment Co. 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
[B][COLOR=Blue]Gross Domestic Product (US) (13:30) [/COLOR][/B]
Personal Consumption (US) (13:30) 
Richmond Fed Manufacturing Index (US) 
House Price Index (US) (15:00) 
Existing Home Sales (US) (15:00) 
GfK Consumer Confidence (GER) (07:00) 
Producer Prices (FRA) (07:45) 
Supermarket Sales (JPN) 

[B]Wednesday December 23[/B] 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
AIM Distribution Trust, Charles Stanley, F.T.S.- Formula [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3187960&username=sabrehbos&ac=211409#"]Telecom Solutions[/URL], Helical Bar 

INTERIM EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
BT Group, Carpathian, F&C Global Smaller Companies, Greene King, Robert Wiseman, RPC Group, Schroder UK [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3187960&username=sabrehbos&ac=211409#"]Growth Fund[/URL] 

QUARTERLY EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Henderson Financial Opportunities Limited, Henderson Global Property Companies Ltd., Schroder Income Growth [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3187960&username=sabrehbos&ac=211409#"]Fund[/URL], Stobart Group Inc 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
New Homes Sales (US) (15:00) 
Personal Income  (US) (13:30) 
Personal Spending (US) (13:30) 
PCE Deflator (US) (13:30) 
University of Michigan Consumer Confidence (US) (15:00) 
Consumer Spending (FRA) (07:45) 
Bank of Japan MPC minutes (JPN)  

GMS 
Intercytex 

AGMS 
Carlton Resources, Red Rock Resources 
[B][COLOR=Blue]
UK ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
BoE Interest Rate Minutes (09:30) [/COLOR][/B]

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Acorn Income Fund Ltd., Advance UK Trust, Renewable Energy Generation, Ultimate Finance Group, Value Catalyst Fund Ltd. (The) 

FINAL EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Acuity VCT 3, Albemarle & Bond, F&C Eurotrust, James Halstead, Schroder Asia Pacific Fund, Schroder UK Mid & Small Cap Fund, The Directors Dealing Inv Trust 

[B]Thursday December 24[/B] 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Hamworthy, Tesco 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Consumer Sentiment (US) 
Durable Goods Orders (US)  (13:30) 
Initial Jobless Claims (US) (13:30) 
Jobless Rate (JPN) 
Consumer Prices Index (JPN) 
  

DesertFlyer

Biggles wrote: »

Actually, spread betting is that bad, I believe those are the actual figures (ie 90% lose). There is random good luck, but you certainly can't rely on it!


Most of the time you will lose a multiple of your original stake, not just the stake. That's the point of spread betting, if you win you can win maybe 100 times your stake but if you lose, the reverse applies. It's only in fixed-odds betting that you can expect your loss to be limited to your stake.

I believe there are 2 key types of spreadbetting account:

• Credit
• Limited risk

The former allows for extremely high leverage potential but would leave you exposed to situations you describe wherein you could end up owing a lot more than you bet.

The latter (which I use on IG) allows you to specify the level of risk you are prepared to take. You must then ensure that you have sufficient funds deposited to cover this.

e.g.

If I was to bet £2 per point long on the FTSE with a stop of 10 points I would lose a maximum of £20. In order to make £20 the FTSE would have to rise by 12 points (to cover the two point spread). This would be great if the FTSE was nice and predictable and not choppy. Setting such a small stop does mean you can make fantastic returns on your stake however invariably you will haemorrhage money in the long run (something I have learnt from experience!).

However, and this is a thought I raised elsewhere but perhaps this is a better place, if I was to make the same bet but deposit £5,000 and went long on the FTSE it would have to drop 2500 points in order for me to lose my money (although feasible this seems unlikely). If it moved in my favour I would still require 2 points/£4 to cover the spread. But I have essentially got the equivalent of £10,000 in a FTSE tracking ETF for an investment of £5,000 and a fee of £4.

This to me seems better than purchasing shares of the ETF itself - my question is whether to make this sort of investment through spreadbetting or use a dealing account/Self Select ISA?

Have I made some wrong assumptions here, or am I missing something critical? I'd be pleased if someone could correct me if I have.

I will most likely be trading/betting on ETFs, Commodities (and maybe a little FX) which are less likely to decline to zero than shares. I'm also following a roughly 60% Equity 35% FI and 5% Commodities portfolio model although I may increase the commodity % next year if gold forecasts continue as they are!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

sabretoothtigger

Sounds roughly right but you should be betting 50p or 10p per point first before trying £2 or it could easily give a nasty surprise. Check whichever company you choose lets you learn with small bets first

DesertFlyer

sabretoothtigger wrote: »

Sounds roughly right but you should be betting 50p or 10p per point first before trying £2 or it could easily give a nasty surprise. Check whichever company you choose lets you learn with small bets first

Thanks sabretoothtigger! So you don't disagree to the principle of using IG spreadbetting as my trading tool rather than opening a trading ISA?

Have bet with IG Index a fair amount in the past and have just got back into it. My trading skills may not be on par with the professionals but I am comfortable with the basics and IG's recent addition of Autochartist is quite useful.

Just need to discipline myself not to get too excited and make silly bets or rapidly swing trade! The dollar devoured a lot of profits this week whilst in its falling wedge!

sabretoothtigger

Dollar is back below its 5 day average now so is probably going to fall again much to golds benefit apparently.

Whats Autochartist actually do, shows trends or something?


My opinion doesnt really matter on your gamble because its your profit or loss not mine. I suggest you build things up slowly and also things might change alot half way into january, they did last year and I think its pretty similar now in terms of mood change & sentiment

Spreadbetting can give such massive gains you could just gamble the profits if done right. I think a snowball approach is best and it sounds like you would be playing very safe that way if successful or if not then lots of lee way to learn

It does sound like you are going trade leveraged bets on a fundamental basis which could be painful like a windmill in a hurricane

Theres no point me trying to estimate if that would work because the best laid plans can go wrong (or right ) , just take it slow is best from what I know


Bottom line would be that spreadbets mostly are best done short term. Some people do swing trade but I think those guys are close to millionaires or very good at this.
CFD is usually done for longer trades Im told. Many spreadbets are day trades and if held over night will be charged a lending fee of around the libor rate, some quarterly no finance would also be listed but the spread is greater on those.

Best to do it all first hand on miniature scale yourself for a few months to see if it works, come back here and let us know how it goes

DesertFlyer

With a fresh pair of eyes I see the problem!

Rollovers do normally cost you something often at LIBOR+ (CityIndex used to do this when I used them I think).

I believe what IG does is close your position at the end of the day then re-open it which essentially means you get hit by the spread again. Will have a look at the T's and C's but that would be a sufficient reason to use a trading ISA on its own.

You were right that I was considering using it for fundamentals trading, however I currently use it for technical based day trading.

So I will open a trading account to manage my long term portfolio which is where the bulk of my money will reside but continue to use IG for day trading with small sums (and I'll let you know how spectacularly wrong it goes!).

Autochartist: You specify what you want it to cover (UK stock, FX, FX Intraday etc.) and set some parameters regarding things like length of pattern, uniformity, clarity, initial trend strength etc. and it will monitor them and alert you when a pattern looks like it is emerging and when a pattern is confirmed/completed at which point it specifies a target range.

Useful pattern analysis tool (you can select which type of patterns to seek, and Fibonaccis as well) although shouldn't be taken for granted as does not reference MACD or RSI (or Volume).

sabretoothtigger

[B]Monday December 28[/B] 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria SA 

[B]Tuesday December 29[/B] 

INTERIMS 
Unitech Corporate Parks 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Perpetual Income & Growth Inv Trust 

INTERIM EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Micro Focus International Plc 

QUARTERLY EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Yamana Gold Inc 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Consumer Confidence (US)   
House Price Index (US) 

AGMS 
Impact Holdings, Physiomics 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
F&C Commercial Property Trust 

[B]Wednesday December 30[/B] 

INTERIMS 
Accident Exchange Group 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Liontrust Asset Managament 

INTERIM EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Experian Group, HMV Group, Latham (James), MS International, Polar Capital Holdings, Sky High, Sovereign Reversions 

QUARTERLY EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Mercantile Inv Trust 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Retail Sales (GER) 

GMS 
Accuma, Summit Corporation 

AGMS 
Cape Diamonds, Gemfields Resources, Lagan Capital, Merchant House 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Baronsmead VCT, Baronsmead VCT 2 

FINAL EX-DIVIDEND DATE 
Albion Income & Growth VCT, Alliance Trust, Artemis AiM VCT, BlackRock [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/3197684/Week_Ahead_Christmas_keeps_things_quiet.html#"]Commodities[/URL] Income Inv Trust, Invesco Perpetual Recovery Trust 2011, JPMorgan Income & Capital Inv Trust, Standard Life European Private Equity Trust, Tanjong 

[B]Thursday December 31[/B] 

INTERIM DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
HSBC Infrastructure Company Ltd., MDM Engineering Group, Utilico Emerging Markets Ltd. 

INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ANNOUNCEMENTS 
Chicago PMI (US) 
Initial Jobless Claims (US) 

AGMS 
AfNat Resources Limited , Eatonfield Group, KSK Power Ventur, Radicle Projects, Triple Plate Junction 

FINAL DIVIDEND PAYMENT DATE 
Asian Citrus, F&C Capital & Income Inv Trust, Henderson Diversified Income Ltd., Local Shopping REIT, MedicX [URL="http://www.digitallook.com/news/3197684/Week_Ahead_Christmas_keeps_things_quiet.html#"]Fund[/URL] Ltd., Scottish American Inv Company 

http://www.digitallook.com/news/sharecast/news.cgi?view=full&story=3197684&username=sabrehbos&ac=211409

Cora150892

Are you trying to say here if I invest say £10, I could end up owing £100?