The fate of May?

Herzlos

spadoosh wrote: »

You wouldnt give me your bank details would you? You wouldnt let me manage your finances? You wouldnt let me tell you what you can and cant spend your money on? And you certainly wouldnt let me tell you when you could and couldnt have intercourse with your partner.

I don't think the EU is dictating anything like that. I can't even fathom anything the EU does that would be close.

We dont know a lot about the EU but its not something we need to or even should have to rely on.

We know almost everything about the EU - almost all of it is a matter of public record. There's no problem relying on something.

No one ever has a come back when i ask them why they arent still living with their parents, its economically better, its better in terms of family dynamics and you just ultimately end up having to say the reason you left your parents was because you wanted to, and its weird banging your bird when your mum and dad are listening

I know myriad people who still live with or have gone back to live with parents briefly and it's almost alway (I think bar 1) been purely financial. Staying at home to finish a degree or a placement, to save up for a deposit for their own place etc.

And that what im like with the EU, i get on weith them, i want to work together on cool things with them, makes sense to sort out some kind of hyperloop across europe thats mutually beneficial, youre just never going to hold me to account, im a big boy and hold myself to account.

You can hold yourself to account from within the EU as well, and work together on all sorts of cool things. Will we be able to work together better with them from the outside?


This all just sounds a bit tinfoil hatted to me.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

Ditto, well to an extent; you can't eat liberty. But I feel I get more liberty from being a part of the EU than outside it. Can you think of a single liberty that the EU takes away from you? The right to buy goods in lbs and oz? The right to buy more powerful vacuum cleaners?


Personally I feel the Tory government is the much bigger threat to liberty and quality of life to normal people, even more so when they don't have to abide by the ECJ.






I'm certainly not keen to have a reduced quality of life (and my earnings will be fine, I'm a higher rate earner and not particularly reliant on the UK or EU economies, and I'm in a country that looks after people), in order to attain some non-existent liberties.







So you want her to have less access to all the EU can provide, because you think she'll do better from an increasingly inward looking and bossed around UK? What do you reckon she'll be able to do from outside of the EU that she couldn't from inside?


I feel my kids will be better off inside the EU (more opportunities) than outside. More stable economy, less cutting of "red tape".






Fair enough. I don't feel the EU makes us any less independent in any ways that matter, but I'm all for the bigger more inclusive states and economies of scale.

It was only a few years ago that they where considering essentially copyrighting the genetic sequencing of seeds (monsanto whre involved im sure). That stuff is quite frankly terrifying and makes me think of 1984.

Other liberties include simple things like buying goods from china. they want to impose a load of tarriffs on me. Restriciting my ability to have a toilet that can flush more than 3 litres and actually wash away a poo without resorting to 8 flushes and countless more wasted water. Its good im being forced to save the environment and everything but i cant help but think they forgot about our suppliers wasting millions of litres of treated water? Giving subsidies. I dont like it. IM old school, you either perform or you dont if you need a subsidy its hard to argue your business is viable. Like why subsidise a farmer to then have to issue more in welfare payments to your citizens in order to be able to pay the additional subsidy to the farmer.

Ill stop the waffling there because youve already cut me off with 'but theyre UK laws or where probably going to be implemented by the UK' whilst thats true and i fully accept that, i havent been asked a question about "do you think you should be part of the UK government"


Im not specifically anti tory, but am quite anti governance. I know the more rules there is the more chance i have of falling foul of one. Like to keep things simple me.

The other problem i have is putting all your eggs in one basket. The EU are simply stupid beyond belief for ever allowing a situation like importing 40% of its gas supplies from Russia. Makes no sense at all, unless of course youre talking about making money, then it makes a lot more sense, but then you kind of staret losing the righteousness points for me anyway.

Its not like he EU havent had every opportunity with me as well. I lived in germany for 8 years, had a holiday home in france for nearly 10, ive got a massive love for Europe and Europeans and i completely understand economies of scale but then onthe flip side there sthe issue of monopolies. They create higher prices (prices havent got cheaper or remained stable for anything since the EU came about) they stifle competition (name the most recent(ly successful) EU car manufacture) and generally make things less better.

Going back to being old school, we live in a world of survival of the fittest, dont get me wrong im not someone to kick someone when theyre down or writing people off but there needs to be a drive for improvement. I dont get that from the EU, theyre lving in 2100 with their AI robots which are walking around ensuring we all have a cushty life but we havent actually got there yet. Nearly 10% of their working population is unemployed yet theyve spent the last 30 years trying to negotiate a trade deal with the US. Thats not progress.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

I don't think the EU is dictating anything like that. I can't even fathom anything the EU does that would be close. my local council has access ot a few million pounds, its a coucnil that has announced it wont be able to meet its front line services in 2020, the millions of pounds are from the EU to be used to make the high street look prettier.


We know almost everything about the EU - almost all of it is a matter of public record. There's no problem relying on something. It was a general we know nothing abou tht EU refering to the general populous ignorance, myself included, i wont randomly check out what new rules the EU have made this week. I cant imagine the EU where saying there isnt a problem relying on Russian gas when the troops where marchin through Ukraine, i bet there was a few sweaty people.



I know myriad people who still live with or have gone back to live with parents briefly and it's almost alway (I think bar 1) been purely financial. Staying at home to finish a degree or a placement, to save up for a deposit for their own place etc. so you see what im getting at? We need to be in a big club because were small children and need help with money, as opposed to i dont care how little money ive got, im standing on my own two feet and i will fail on my own two feet if i have to.




You can hold yourself to account from within the EU as well, and work together on all sorts of cool things. Will we be able to work together better with them from the outside? You can either veto meaning no progress or be democratically over ruled to force progress meaning no veto. Thats basically saying you will like what we do. It shouldnt make a difference working together. But then your talking to someone who works for their parents, had i still lived with them i know i wouldnt work for them.


This all just sounds a bit tinfoil hatted to me.

Care to explain or is dismissing my argument as conspiracy the best youve got?

Herzlos

spadoosh wrote: »

Care to explain or is dismissing my argument as conspiracy the best youve got?

Not conspiracy, but it all seems fairly far along the paranoia scale. You don't like rules, governance and being told what to do (or helped), thus the less rules and governance, the better, which is fair enough. Then you mention a few examples of nannying and tariffs for instance.


Stuff that protects people is good, as is stuff that protects the environment (I've never encountered any real problems with the 3l flushes, think of all the water we were wasting before).


To this point:

We need to be in a big club because were small children and need help with money, as opposed to i dont care how little money ive got, im standing on my own two feet and i will fail on my own two feet if i have to.

I think that highlights a big difference in attitude - I'm happy to ask for help when I need it (I stayed at home for the final year of my degree so I could dedicate time to study instead of working 2 jobs), and I'm definitely not going to let myself fail through stubbornness. If we're better off in the EU I'm happy to work with them; I don't see the point in myself or my children (or their children) being worse off because I don't like rules.


I'm against rules for the sake of rules (and UK gov is just as likely to introduce them than the EU) but I can appreciate that they are almost all for some good reason (like the toilet flush limit or the ban of old-style lightbulbs).

my local council has access ot a few million pounds, its a coucnil that has announced it wont be able to meet its front line services in 2020, the millions of pounds are from the EU to be used to make the high street look prettier.

I'm not sure how that relates to my point? So the EU was providing funding for regenerating your local high street (that Westminster wasn't providing) and now that we're leaving the EU that funding is drying up. That's obvious and fits with your 'rather fail alone' ideology. That the council no longer has the funds to cover it's front line services is a symptom of the Tories misguided (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's accidental and not deliberate) austerity. The sad thing is that any economic damage from us going it alone will cause more austerity and cuts, thus Brexit is only going to make it worse.


I think a lot of people are going to be upset/disappointed when the cold reality of Brexit kicks in - less jobs, less money, less freedom, less public services.

Thrugelmir

andrewf75 wrote: »

if the government was united on your outcome, commanded a majority and set out the plan from day one of the 2 year notice period it could have worked like that - in theory.

The Government quite rightly has people with different viewpoints.

zarf2007

Nice to see Macron is already threatening to keep the UK in the customs union unless we give the french access to our waters for fishing. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/macron-says-eu-keep-uk-13643460

spineless May’s deal already coming back to haunt her. I pray now this deal is voted down by parliament and we exit on WTO rules.....far better than the crap she has negotiated.

Jack_Johnson_the_acorn

zarf2007 wrote: »

Nice to see Macron is already threatening to keep the UK in the customs union unless we give the french access to our waters for fishing. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/macron-says-eu-keep-uk-13643460

spineless May’s deal already coming back to haunt her. I pray now this deal is voted down by parliament and we exit on WTO rules.....far better than the crap she has negotiated.

Or we sensibily decide that we won't go full kamikaze and we remain after all. That'd be nice.:rotfl:

Thrugelmir

zarf2007 wrote: »

spineless May’s deal already coming back to haunt her.

Nothing spineless in negotiating in good faith. As that's what she was mandated to do. Interesting that's she's gunning for Corbyn. Who is a poor public speaker. Perhaps an attempt to open up the divisions in the Labour party.

The deal isn't just in relation to trade but a whole raft of issues. No deal would be a major issue for many people (outside of politics). Some of form of settlement is a neccessity.

zarf2007

Jack_Johnson_the_acorn wrote: »

Or we sensibily decide that we won't go full kamikaze and we remain after all. That'd be nice.:rotfl:

yes, nothing like a healthy dose of Project Fear from the remainers, which is exactly why the deal she secured was so crap.

when are you going to wake up and realise the UK won't end if we exit without a deal!

andrewf75

zarf2007 wrote: »

when are you going to wake up and realise the UK won't end if we exit without a deal!

It quite possibly will whether we leave with a deal or not.