GENUINE Money Moral Dilemma!

takman

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Obviously not - but a society that does all the giving to couples and none of the giving to singles has another word coming to mind = discrimination. Not "bitter" at all - just a statement of facts that things under the previous set-up exacerbated the financial division between singles and couples.

People that attend weddings do tend to feel "pressured" to give a gift anyway - as it's put as "The Norm" to do so. Many people aren't strong enough to work things out logically and, if the end result means going against The Norm, then doing so.

Singles have it a lot harder anyway - that £2,000 pa on average of extra bills spending for a start.

Well obviously single people still have birthdays and Christmas where they get presents. But gift giving is always optional and it's a bit sad that you think gift giving is unfair because you might not receive as much in return as you give out.

I've been to quite a few weddings and I've never actually given a gift. Most people seem to make a big deal about gift giving being optional anyway so i can't see how their is much pressure.

Mjkpio

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Obviously not - but a society that does all the giving to couples and none of the giving to singles has another word coming to mind = discrimination. Not "bitter" at all - just a statement of facts that things under the previous set-up exacerbated the financial division between singles and couples. Followed by thinking logically and thinking "There's unfairness going on here - from this 1950s era thinking".

People that attend weddings do tend to feel "pressured" to give a gift anyway - as it's put as "The Norm" to do so. Many people aren't strong enough to work things out logically and, if the end result means going against The Norm, then doing so.

Singles have it a lot harder anyway - that £2,000 pa on average of extra bills spending for a start. That's before we mention the tens of thousands of £s extra it takes a single person to buy a home - as there is only them to pay for it.

You should throw a "Celebrating being single" party then. Just make sure you put "Gifts mandatory" on the invites... :rotfl:

TBagpuss

Marisco wrote: »

How do you work that out? With the exception of food, all other bills will be the same, whether there is one or two in the house/flat. In fact you get 25% off CT

Exactly. A single person gets 25% off council tax but everything else is the same as if they were a couple, someone who is half of a couple is effectively paying 50% of what a single person is.
With council tax it is even worse, each person in a couple pays 50% of the total council tax bill, the single person pays 75% of the total council tax bill.

On an average property in my are, that means that the single person will be paying around £950 a year, the couple will each be paying £633..

Food bills are slightly higher for 2 people than one, but not as much as double, as there are typically economies of scale.

The household costs are therfore similar for a single person as for a couple, but those costs are split between 2 people where there is a couple, so the per person cost is a lot lower.

I think £2,000 a year sounds remarkably low for the difference!

takman

TBagpuss wrote: »

Exactly. A single person gets 25% off council tax but everything else is the same as if they were a couple, someone who is half of a couple is effectively paying 50% of what a single person is.
With council tax it is even worse, each person in a couple pays 50% of the total council tax bill, the single person pays 75% of the total council tax bill.

On an average property in my are, that means that the single person will be paying around £950 a year, the couple will each be paying £633..

Food bills are slightly higher for 2 people than one, but not as much as double, as there are typically economies of scale.

The household costs are therfore similar for a single person as for a couple, but those costs are split between 2 people where there is a couple, so the per person cost is a lot lower.

I think £2,000 a year sounds remarkably low for the difference!

But if your a single person (as in not in a relationship) it doesn't mean you have to live alone. You can rent a room in a shared house which may work out even cheaper to live than a couple when the costs are spread out across more people. You could rent or even buy a house with another single person without being in a relationship.

So yes a single person who wants to live alone will probably have higher living costs than a couple, but that is their choice to live a solitary life and i wouldn't say the "single people are hard done by" attitude by moneyistooshorttomention is justified.

moneyistooshorttomention

Marisco wrote: »

How do you work that out? With the exception of food, all other bills will be the same, whether there is one or two in the house/flat. In fact you get 25% off CT

Now I know I didn't pass my maths O level - but 75% being paid by one person is rather more than a coupled-up person paying 50% (as their other half will be responsible for the other 50%).

Plus tv licence - 100% payable by one person, rather than only having to pay 50% (as their other half will be responsible for the other 50%).

House insurance - same cost

and so on and so on. There was a recent article adding all up the extra money that a single person pays for household bills, compared with the 50% share a coupled-up person pays. Total came to an average of £2,000 extra on bills per single person.

We're not even mentioning THE big extra cost - ie buying a house all on one's own (only one income to pay the solicitor/removal costs/surveyors bill/etc) and the biggest one of all - the house itself having to be covered by just one income.

As for the idea that it's a "choice" to be single - LOL LOL LOL. It may well be for some people. But "If you haven't met Mr or Miss Right, then you can't marry them can you?"

Pollycat

Mjkpio wrote: »

Wow, people are incredibly judgmental on here, especially without all the facts!

1: The question was posted because I was interested to see what the reactions and comments would be. They absolutely confirmed my own views that reminding someone - who had made their planned intentions of giving a gift very clear - was not appropriate and to just leave it.

2: I NEVER asked for money or cash. We very politely and gently included it as an option should anyone wish to contribute. It was not expected or demanded, and not everyone did. People's attendance was enough, but the cards, presents and contributions were a real reminder of how much people cared for us.

3: Speaking specifically; we used a popular travel provider to book our honeymoon (which of course you can still have after living together for years, especially when you haven't been on holiday for 7 years prior!) who actually offer a "honeymoon contribution" website. We received so many kind comments and contributions.

I thought it would be nice to share our polite mention of gifts in our invite:

Please do not feel obliged to buy us a gift, your presence on our wedding day is the most important gift that you could give us. However, should you wish to contribute, we are hoping to make our honeymoon the trip of a lifetime. Please find the enclosed TrailFinders card for details

4: I have NEVER been to a wedding where a gift list or honeymoon contribution was not mentioned in the invite. I would never feel pressured into buying a gift, but always would because if the couple values me enough to be a part of their special day then I want to show my love and support for them as well. I find the mentality of "evening out gift giving" such a selfish motivation and the opposite of what showing love and support is all about.

5: Contributions to honeymoons are way more popular these days due to a) people living together for longer and already owning many household items that would typically have been on gift lists and b) the sheer expense of holiday's, especially honeymoons, especially when restricted to school holidays etc!

6. I understand the comments from single people. But that's not an excuse to be bitter. If you can't afford a gift then don't - your presence is more than enough anyway. If the couple doesn't respect that decision then that's on them, but if you feel that everything's an expense and an effort that you don't make the effort for then that's on you. I think often guests and couples forget the effort from both sides - guests forget that weddings are expensive, often costing £50-150 per head plus extras, the planning and all the details to ensure the guests are made welcome and have activities during the quieter parts of the day... and the couple forget the cost and efforts made by the guests to save the date, get an outfit, get there, stay over/get home etc. BUT, when everyone remembers this and really appreciates it, that's when there's a real harmony between family and friends.

Sorry, went on a bit there

TLDR; Never expect to receive or give a gift, but if you are going to then give because you want to not because you feel you have to. Weddings are about love and support, not about getting even with your gifts.

My comments were based on what you said here in an earlier post:

Mjkpio wrote: »

So yea, I'm totally with all of you anyway - i.e. not to even mention it - haven't and wouldn't! (I'm totally not that sort of person who feels 'cheated' out of a present of anything! Nor the sort of person who wouldn't get them a gift in the future because they didn't for me!)

FYI, I DID NOT remind this person to give us a gift even once. They simply messaged me saying they'd lost the details and to resend them so they could contribute.




This kinda confuses me. I think it's perfectly fair to ask people to contribute to a honeymoon rather than a gift list of things that you don't want or need.

Anyway, I thought it would be fun to post a genuine MMD and see the reactions!

I said I personally didn't think it was fair to ask people to contribute to a honeymoon' especially when you've been living together for years and I still don't.

I don't need to know any more facts than you provided, let alone all of them.

I've never attended a wedding without buying a present and I've never given money - with or without being asked - and I never will.

ska_lover

Pollycat wrote: »

I've never attended a wedding without buying a present and I've never given money - with or without being asked - and I never will.

Hi Pollycat

I find that strange. So you always take a present, but never give money

Can you explain the logic in that? I feel I am reading that wrong

I genuinely don't understand the logic in deliberately giving an unwanted gift (if a cash or voucher request is made)- rather than bunging the equivalent in cash, in the card?

Is it the giving of cash, that people find offensive? Are wedding registries, also deemed offensive too, these days (they have been going on for years - same principle)

It is actually easier to give cash, you don't have to go shopping for it - what that train of thought seems to be the wedding guest, quite literally going out of their way to shop for an unwanted present.

Better to give nothing, than to go with disingenuous non genuine good wishes, and use the gift giving as a way to make a passive aggressive point...that ends up in the charity shop

moneyistooshorttomention

Well I can see that giving money is a very different thing to giving a present.

If you're giving a present then it is specifically for that occasion/something you hope they'll like/etc.

Whereas money just "goes into the pot". It doesn't matter what money is said to be for - it still goes into that one pot that everything else comes out of (including the boring stuff like paying bills).

It's not possible to "earmark" any money given as "ONLY for something to do with the wedding".

Which reminds me - I'll be getting my £200 pa "Winter fuel allowance" money soon. It doesn't matter a darn to me what it's actually labelled as - it will just "go into the pot" anyway. If we're being precise about it - it will be going towards my next visit back to my home city and will cover about 4 nights bed and breakfast costs. So not put to one side in an envelope entitled "Pay for some sacks of coal or part of the cost of a tanker full of oil" then - just "into the pot" that everything else comes from.

That's what happens to money given ITRW - ask any of the f*ckless type of parent that isn't carefully putting to one side money given as "child benefit" or the like specifically for the children - but buying fags or booze for themselves instead.

ska_lover

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

It's not possible to "earmark" any money given as "ONLY for something to do with the wedding".

Which reminds me - I'll be getting my £200 pa "Winter fuel allowance" money soon............ If we're being precise about it - it will be going towards my next visit back to my home city

You demonstrate yourself here, how easy it is to ear mark cash for a specific thing

Pollycat

ska_lover wrote: »

Hi Pollycat

I find that strange. So you always take a present, but never give money

Can you explain the logic in that? I feel I am reading that wrong

I think moneyistooshorttomention has explained my reasoning perfectly.

ska_lover wrote: »

I genuinely don't understand the logic in deliberately giving an unwanted gift (if a cash or voucher request is made)- rather than bunging the equivalent in cash, in the card?

You don't need to understand my logic.
It is what it is.

ska_lover wrote: »

Is it the giving of cash, that people find offensive? Are wedding registries, also deemed offensive too, these days (they have been going on for years - same principle)

I don't find the giving of cash offensive.
I just don't give cash.

Re 'wedding registries' - do you mean where brides & grooms have a wedding list?
If you do, I view that as very different to asking for money. It is buying a gift.

ska_lover wrote: »

It is actually easier to give cash, you don't have to go shopping for it - what that train of thought seems to be the wedding guest, quite literally going out of their way to shop for an unwanted present.

I don't really care how easy it is to give cash as opposed to buying a gift.
It's my time I'm spending, nobody else's.

ska_lover wrote: »

Better to give nothing, than to go with disingenuous non genuine good wishes, and use the gift giving as a way to make a passive aggressive point...that ends up in the charity shop

That's your opinion.
It isn't mine.