Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

And I can't vote for May as PM, or any cabinet positions, civil servants, MPsoutside of my constituency or Lords.

The people you mention are elected/appointed by a group from who you elect your representatives. You have the same opportunity to remove Barnier as I do to remove Reese Moggs.

But we've had this discussion before I'm sure.



I'll have a quick look.

As you say we’ve been here before.
You and I vote directly for our lawmaker in the U.K. Parliament and we can help unseat them every five years. The originator of laws at EU level are appointed by national leaders who bar one I have no say over.
Like I said a few posts back it depends on whether that situation bothers you or not. It does me and not you, that’s fair enough.

gfplux

While talking about a problem of the EU it is so easy to ignore the greater fault line in Britain.
While people who have money, power or donate money to power can SIDE STEP the NHS and Education those two major institutions will always be towards the back of the line for proper funding.
After Brexit has happened I look forward to a populist surge to dismantle this two speed world.
Perhaps a referendum to dismantle or not private medicine and education.

Ballard

cogito wrote: »

Being influential and having the power to exercise it are not the same.

So who has the power then? Is it just the PM? The Queen?

Tromking

gfplux wrote: »

While talking about a problem of the EU it is so easy to ignore the greater fault line in Britain.
While people who have money, power or donate money to power can SIDE STEP the NHS and Education those two major institutions will always be towards the back of the line for proper funding.
After Brexit has happened I look forward to a populist surge to dismantle this two speed world.
Perhaps a referendum to dismantle or not private medicine and education.

You are right to flag up the list of issues that irk the British voting public. I look forward to a time when the EU is scrubbed off the list and a more focused political class in the U.K. can concentrate on the NHS and education. Imagine a Conservative party not constantly banging on about the EU.

Masomnia

Herzlos wrote: »

Can you point to an EU role that's unelected where the UK equivalent isn't also unelected?
I'm just curious, as I don't see this unelected beaurocrat thing.
Or the 'Britain must be punished thing'. Is that the quote about Brexit being punishment enough?

The problem is that the people we can elect, i.e. MEPs do not have legislative initiative. They can't bring forward legislation off their own bat, they can't propose to repeal legislation. There isn't an equivalent role to Juncker and the various Commissioners because we have a different system, and we elect the people that propose and bring legislation to Parliament.

It's a common thing that you hear 'The EU is more democratic, they have proportional representation etc, we don't elect our civil service either.'

I know that the Prime Minister can change between elections without us having a vote, but when it comes to a UK election you vote knowing who leader is, what they believe in, there's a manifesto so you know what policies they're looking to bring in. When it comes to the EU elections you have no idea who will be put in charge of the Commission and ultimately what the Parliament gets to vote on is up to the Commission.

Recently the Parliament voted down the Commissions proposals for a new Copyright Directive (don't worry they will get another chance to vote again), and that's fine, but whose manifesto was that in? When we were voting last time around who was proposing this? The answer is no one, because people like Juncker and the Commissioners that come up with this stuff are not accountable to the electorate. We just get to decide who will rubber stamp it.

What if we want to reform freedom of movement? Electing people who want to change it will no difference because the Parliament can't vote to repeal legislation without the Commission allowing them to. VAT on tampons? No one wants it and the Commission has said they will do something about it; in fact they said that years ago and nothing has changed, but the EU Parliament cannot do anything without the Commission's say so. We get no choice over who is in the Commission.

If it was a genuinely democratic system that might have tipped me to Remain, but the fact is it isn't. We can try to reform as much as we like but the electorate has no real power.

Enterprise_1701C

Well said Masomnia, that is a brilliant summation and actually addresses the problems that caused a lot of people to vote to leave, and it is far better than some of the emotive outpourings we get on here.

gfplux wrote: »

While talking about a problem of the EU it is so easy to ignore the greater fault line in Britain.
While people who have money, power or donate money to power can SIDE STEP the NHS and Education those two major institutions will always be towards the back of the line for proper funding.
After Brexit has happened I look forward to a populist surge to dismantle this two speed world.
Perhaps a referendum to dismantle or not private medicine and education.

Yes, they sidestep the nhs and the council run schools, but what about all the people that get BUPA as part of their work, what about all the scholarships that are provided by charities?

The problem of eliminating private hospitals and public schools is that they will not simply be swallowed by the state, there must ba a massive amount of people that use these.

Another way of looking at it is there is less people waiting for nhs treatment because of the private hospitals, and there is less demand for school places because of the public schools.

I think the main problem with education is that a lot of people want the standards to go down to a common level, where they should really go up to a common level. Remove the public schools and the standard of education in this country would be even more atrocious than it is now.

Arklight

Thrugelmir wrote: »

If you are going to totally disregard history. Then your understanding of almost everything is worthless. Our history determines who we are and our relationships with others. Like posting on Facebook. Once written it's never erased. Will comeback to haunt you at the most inopportune moment in the future.

What an absolute joke. You’re bleating on about making your own decisions with one breath then sagely lecturing people that their identity and politics should be decided by what people who have been dead for hundreds of years did.

But that’s nationalism for you. Limiting, introverted and pointless.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

You and I vote directly for our lawmaker in the U.K. Parliament and we can help unseat them every five years.

No we don't. We vote for a local representative who will then go on to decide on our government (single party, coalition, etc). The governing party then selects a prime ml8 sister who selects a cabinet.

How many lib dems voters voted for a Tory coalition? How many Tory voters voted for a DUP confidence and supply deal?
How many Tory voters voted for Theresa May?

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

No we don't. We vote for a local representative who will then go on to decide on our government (single party, coalition, etc). The governing party then selects a prime ml8 sister who selects a cabinet.

How many lib dems voters voted for a Tory coalition? How many Tory voters voted for a DUP confidence and supply deal?
How many Tory voters voted for Theresa May?

You have opportunity to get rid of May at next election is that true about Junker.

Zero_Gravitas

ukcarper wrote: »

You have opportunity to get rid of May at next election is that true about Junker.

Unless you are on the electoral in her constituency, you can’t get rid of May at the next election. Although you could cast your vote in the hope that the party of which she is the leader does not form the next government.

The President of the European Commission is elected by the European Parliament. The European Parliament consists of MEPs who are elected by the electorate of their constituencies.

So same rules apply, if you didn’t want Juncker to be President, you could have voted for a party in the European elections that would have opposed his appointment. Apparently not enough people did so. I think leavers would call that the will of the people...