Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

spadoosh

mayonnaise wrote: »

Remarkable how liberal, elite and educated have now become some kind of insult.

- Liberalism : a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality
- Elite : a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.
- Educated : having been educated

So yes, call me an educated elitist liberal, I'll wear that badge with pride.

I really dont think youre liberal in the slightest. You refuse to accept that people voted differently and its simply a case of them not being educated enough to come to the same conclusion as you. I suspect you dont believe in equality as much as you say either. I cant see how you could believe in equality and want ot be part of a club that excludes others based on geography, i mean the EU sounds ideal but the reality is its a rich white mans club that looks to take advantage of those not in the club. If the EU was liberal they would advocate the 4 freedoms globally and not restrict it to members only. They dont, their only interest is protecting themself (not saying its right or wrong) yet they virtue signal as wanting to help the world when the reality is they can very easily do a lot more and lead by example, but they still choose not to.

Elite, maybe, probably not.

Educated, you can have that one.

cogito

mayonnaise wrote: »

Remarkable how liberal, elite and educated have now become some kind of insult.

- Liberalism : a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality
- Elite : a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.
- Educated : having been educated

So yes, call me an educated elitist liberal, I'll wear that badge with pride.

There's nothing remarkable about it. Liberalism was all those things that you said but modern liberals are nothing of the sort. They are almost exclusively left wing and use liberalism as a cloak. The views which you frequently express on this forum puts you firmly in the category of those whose badge you wear with pride although I doubt that you are among the elite.

The modern elites are a self selected group who have attained positions of power and are willing to use it to impose their wishes without seeing the need to consult those affected by their actions. We all know who they are.

Ballard

cogito wrote: »

The modern elites are a self selected group who have attained positions of power and are willing to use it to impose their wishes without seeing the need to consult those affected by their actions. We all know who they are.

Do you consider Farage, JRM, Gove etc in the category of elite?

StevieJ

spadoosh wrote: »

I really dont think youre liberal in the slightest. You refuse to accept that people voted differently and its simply a case of them not being educated enough to come to the same conclusion as you. I suspect you dont believe in equality as much as you say either. I cant see how you could believe in equality and want ot be part of a club that excludes others based on geography, i mean the EU sounds ideal but the reality is its a rich white mans club that looks to take advantage of those not in the club. If the EU was liberal they would advocate the 4 freedoms globally and not restrict it to members only. They dont, their only interest is protecting themself (not saying its right or wrong) yet they virtue signal as wanting to help the world when the reality is they can very easily do a lot more and lead by example, but they still choose not to.

Elite, maybe, probably not.

Educated, you can have that one.

So remind me again why we voted out?

StevieJ

cogito wrote: »

There's nothing remarkable about it. Liberalism was all those things that you said but modern liberals are nothing of the sort. They are almost exclusively left wing and use liberalism as a cloak. The views which you frequently express on this forum puts you firmly in the category of those whose badge you wear with pride although I doubt that you are among the elite.
.

Then again don't anti govt/intervention 'free marketeers' consider themselves as Liberals. It is all getting very confusing

cogito

Ballard wrote: »

Do you consider Farage, JRM, Gove etc in the category of elite?

Do you consider them to be in positions of power where they can exercise it to impose their will on others?

Ballard

cogito wrote: »

Do you consider them to be in positions of power where they can exercise it to impose their will on others?

They are all senior politicians. How much more influencial can anyone be?

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

What's the obvious one?


The most common theme when it comes to why people voted Leave, by a long margin, was "immigration".

I also think the major factor was immigration followed by being subject to EU rules, but many people are not seeing the benefits of being in EU and feel marginalised therefore want to leave and project fear did a very poor job of convincing them otherwise .

Sapphire

ukcarper wrote: »

I also think the major factor was immigration followed by being subject to EU rules, but many people are not seeing the benefits of being in EU and feel marginalised therefore want to leave and project fear did a very poor job of convincing them otherwise .

There's also the major question of sovereignty – of being allowed to make our own decisions with regard to our laws and other key issues that affect our country; of electing our own, British politicians who are meant to do the people's will, and being able to change them if they do not; of not being governed remotely by some anonymous, unelected, highly paid foreign business types of another country, unaccountable to anyone; of not having the Euro imposed on our country, and so on. Though this issue has been swept under the carpet as if it does not exist by pro-EU interests, the very real threat of loss of sovereignty was a big motivating factor in the vote to leave of many of the people I know (actually sophisticated and educated metropolitan types), who thought about how they were going to vote long and hard, and weren't influenced by the propaganda campaigns. Many people certainly feel there should be control of immigration, not the free for all that there is now; that is not racist, though it is being portrayed as such by vested interests.

Loss of sovereignty is something that can only be truly appreciated after the loss has occurred (coming from a family whose nation was lost to deep oppression for a very long time, I can easily see that). Regaining it after that is a cruel and hard task.

It could be that an EU organisation can work for a country like Germany, which didn't even exist until the 19th century and up till then was a collection of warring states. But it will not work for sovereign countries with millennia-long traditions and histories, and sooner or later others will want to take the same route as Britain. I also find it incredible that no citizen of this country was ever given a vote on whether they wanted to be a part of some continental European 'state'. As I understood it until quite recently, the EU was created purely for economic purposes, to make the markets work harmoniously. I never dreamt it involved loss of sovereignty.

The actions of the EU itself since our vote (e.g. the 'Britain must be punished' stance, and so on) have only reinforced my view that we have to leave.

wunferall

Well said Sapphire.
:T
These coming months will be interesting because Italians appear to be increasingly forming the same opinions about the EU.


Their economy is still 6% smaller than it was before 2008; Italy's unemployment remains well above the EU average at 10.9% with youth unemployment well over 30%; their debt is around 130% of GDP.
No wonder Italians are disgruntled regarding migrants, and no wonder Italy is planning an EU-budget-busting big-spending budget for next year.
How the EU responds will obviously sway the opinion of Italians - but they aren't doing well so far.
Threatening over migrants and threatening over raised budget plans.
Way to go, EU.
Still, past experience and all that ...........

That's what really makes me chuckle when a typical (unimaginative) remainer response to good UK economic news is "and all while we're members of the EU".
Yeah, right.
If our economic prowess is due to EU influence then why not accept also that the EU must therefore be responsible for the poor performance of Greece, Italy and Spain to name just a few?
:wall: