Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

1973. Though some were old enough to have voted without ancestral help; anyone under 61 at the referendum was too young to have voted first time round.


And now I'm sure you'll go on about how that wasn't the same EU

Proving once again your ignorance when it comes to history. The 6th June 1975 is the date on which there was a referendum on membership of the European Economic Community which you then go on to concede was not the EU.

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Proving once again your ignorance when it comes to history. The 6th June 1975 is the date on which there was a referendum on membership of the European Economic Community which you then go on to concede was not the EU.

Alas, were it so.


https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/parliament-and-europe/overview/britain-and-eec-to-single-european-act/

The Conservative Prime Minister, Edward Heath, took the UK into the EEC in January 1973 after President de Gaulle of France had blocked UK membership twice in the 1960s. This brought EEC membership to nine. In a referendum in 1975 the UK electorate voted to stay in the EEC under renegotiated terms of entry.

Of course, the parliament website could entirely be wrong. I can't say I have any first hand experience having been born a decade later.



So we joined the EEC in 1973, and had a referendum in 1975 about staying in, which we decided to do, we then did pretty well from it.



I also didn't concede that the EEC isn't the EU, the EEC went onto become the EU after a series of changes (for the better IMHO). I just figured I'd head off the arguments about the EEC not being the same thing as the EU.


But I'll leave the pedantry for you to pick at where I'm technically wrong, somewhere

buglawton

In case anyone missed it, this is the dramatisation on the pre referendum campaign, some will find it makes riveting viewing:
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/brexit-the-uncivil-war
(Benedict Cumberbatch in lead role)

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Alas, were it so.


https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/parliament-and-europe/overview/britain-and-eec-to-single-european-act/

Of course, the parliament website could entirely be wrong. I can't say I have any first hand experience having been born a decade later.



So we joined the EEC in 1973, and had a referendum in 1975 about staying in, which we decided to do, we then did pretty well from it.



I also didn't concede that the EEC isn't the EU, the EEC went onto become the EU after a series of changes (for the better IMHO). I just figured I'd head off the arguments about the EEC not being the same thing as the EU.


But I'll leave the pedantry for you to pick at where I'm technically wrong, somewhere

A rather convoluted way of conceding that Cogito was right it has to be said. You were in error, own it.

Tromking

Our Parliament is now acting against the expressed wishes of a majority of the British people. This will not end well.
Frightening times re. our democracy.

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

Alas, were it so.


https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/parliament-and-europe/overview/britain-and-eec-to-single-european-act/

Of course, the parliament website could entirely be wrong. I can't say I have any first hand experience having been born a decade later.



So we joined the EEC in 1973, and had a referendum in 1975 about staying in, which we decided to do, we then did pretty well from it.



I also didn't concede that the EEC isn't the EU, the EEC went onto become the EU after a series of changes (for the better IMHO). I just figured I'd head off the arguments about the EEC not being the same thing as the EU.


But I'll leave the pedantry for you to pick at where I'm technically wrong, somewhere

You not technically wrong. You are completely and utterly wrong. You said that we voted to join the union (whatever you want to call it) in 1973. You were clearly talking about the people who had no say in the matter but it was the Heath government which took us in without troubling to find out if that was what the people wanted to do.

I suspect you will find that of the 600 or so MPs who voted to join, many were over the age of 61.

Filo25

Tromking wrote: »

Our Parliament is now acting against the expressed wishes of a majority of the British people. This will not end well.
Frightening times re. our democracy.

This ain't going to end well whatever the outcome is, placating some of the more extreme Brexiteers and going cliff edge no deal, isn't going to magically bring the country back together.

The company hasn't magically come together after 2 years of Remainers being talked down to like they are simple minded, are traitors, or just plain hate their country.

I haven't seen a poll in a while suggesting that a majority of people now favour leaving the EU, but still we get the usual nonsense suggesting that we need not only Brexit but the very hardest form of it, in response to an appallingly worded question that has allowed everyone to define Brexit however they want to.

Even if we view the original referendum result as sacrosanct all it says is we should leave the EU it has nothing to say on how we leave or what terms we leave on, if Brexiteers genuinely think a majority of people want no deal then why aren't they a lot more enthusiastic about a second referendum with no deal as an option? Did democracy end in June 2016?

Tromking

Filo25 wrote: »

This ain't going to end well whatever the outcome is, placating some of the more extreme Brexiteers and going cliff edge no deal, isn't going to magically bring the country back together.

No it isn’t, but No Deal is looking like the only scenario with the required amount of political legitimacy.

Filo25

Tromking wrote: »

No it isn’t, but No Deal is looking like the only scenario with the required amount of political legitimacy.

Sorry but why is that the case, just because every right wing media outlet suddenly started foaming at the mouth and declaring everything else was a betrayal after the referendum happened, doesn't make it true.

If a No Deal Brexit was on the referendum vote then you would have a point but it wasn't, we could go Norway + Customs Union and we would still be leaving the EU and "respecting" the result of the referendum, because the question was so broad (if it wasn't Leave probably wouldn't have won)

If you think there is the democratic mandate for No Deal why are you so afraid of asking the people again to show that.

The problem is, the only way No Deal even has a realistic chance of winning a vote is if it is No Deal v Remain (which Brexiters are terrified of), No Deal v May's Deal it would almost certainly lose badly as most Remainers and a fair numbers of Leavers would vote for May's deal.

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

You not technically wrong. You are completely and utterly wrong. You said that we voted to join the union (whatever you want to call it) in 1973. You were clearly talking about the people who had no say in the matter but it was the Heath government which took us in without troubling to find out if that was what the people wanted to do.

Fair point, I confused when did we join the EU with when did we vote to join the EU, missing the fact that we joined before voting.

I suspect you will find that of the 600 or so MPs who voted to join, many were over the age of 61.

I don't see any figures for how much of the UK population is over 60, but it looks like 18% is over 65.


That's a curious demographic mismatch with parliament, where nearly all are over 60.