Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

mayonnaise

Herzlos wrote: »

Graham, no one is ignoring the answer. A small majority of wanted to leave 2 years ago. "The will of the people" means we should leave.

The should be no 2nd referendum and we should leave.
But the tiny majority in 2016 and the shifting mood on the issue should push parliament towards a solution that fits the majority of citizens. Something like the Norway model.

Would suit a majority of Remainers and would suit most of the Leavers. After all, they voted Leave after the Norway model was touted as desirable by the likes of Farage, Hannan and Banks.

ukcarper

As someone without the extremely biased views of some posters here, I think both sides have behaved badly the EU appears to think we will cave in and are not putting forward any constructive ideas and dismissing most of ours outright, while we seem to have no coherent plan. I think you can take the insulting remarks with a pinch of salt, as they are being made by both sides.

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

So if, God Forbid, Corbyn got in at the next election, and the sensible people that did not want him in campaigned ceaselessly to overturn the result and got a large number of people behind them, and the people (not parliament) demanded another vote a couple of years later, would we be entitled to one?

We'd have a general election 5 years later to change government, or have various mechanisms to pressure MPs to remove him at any point. Neither of which would result in serious irreversible damage.


So it's hardly the same as leaving the EU is it?

Oh, and we didn't vote to join the eu in the 70's, we voted to remain in the Common Market, a totally different entity. So this has been the first and only referendum on the eu.

And we were entirely on board with all of the changes since. But even assuming the EU isn't the Common Market, how much will the EU need to change again before we can have a different referendum on joining it?

Herzlos

ukcarper wrote: »

As someone without the extremely biased views

In your opinion. You're at least as biased as the rest of us.

I think both sides have behaved badly the EU appears to think we will cave in and are not putting forward any constructive ideas and dismissing most of ours outright, while we seem to have no coherent plan. I think you can take the insulting remarks with a pinch of salt, as they are being made by both sides.

I just don't see playing to the upper hand as being badly behaved. They haven't threatened us, or bullied us, they've just remained consistently assertive about their position.

They are happy with the fallback positions, and are clear about what they will/won't accept. They have no obligation to bend to any of our crazy and impractical suggestions.


To some, that unwillingness to give in is viewed as being rude or bullying, but in reality it's exactly the same as if anyone is trying to negotiate with a toddler, and a fundamental misunderstanding that negotiation doesn't require meeting in the middle if there's such an imbalance of power.


It's a shame that people believed the lies about the Brexit negotiations being the easiest in history - that doesn't even pass the sniff test once married up with Mays red lines.

Filo25

ukcarper wrote: »

As someone without the extremely biased views of some posters here, I think both sides have behaved badly the EU appears to think we will cave in and are not putting forward any constructive ideas and dismissing most of ours outright, while we seem to have no coherent plan. I think you can take the insulting remarks with a pinch of salt, as they are being made by both sides.

This all seems to be based on the idea that we deserve a "special" deal though, the EU have already set out what they want from various deal scenarios and that largely tracks the various deals they already have with non-EU nations around the world (with the one other added significant complication being the NI border).

The problem is we don't want any of those deals we want something much more comprehensive in terms of access, without compromising any of our redlines.

The expectations gap still seems phenomenally high, and I suppose its impressive how many seem to have bought into the Hard Brexiteer rhetoric that the current difficulties are all down to intransigence from the EU, it all helps to pave the way for the Hard Brexit those interests so desperately want, and they need someone to blame apart from themselves for the inevitable ecconomic slowdown that would follow.

mayonnaise

ukcarper wrote: »

As someone without the extremely biased views of some posters here...

What? :rotfl:
You're one of the most biased posters on here. Below a snippet where you blame remain supporters for the mess the brexiteers got us in.

ukcarper wrote: »

I agree the original referendum has caused many problems and divided the country and personally I don't see anyway forward. I don't blame UKIP or leave supporters for that but the arrogance of remain supporters that were so far out of touch that they though there was no way they could lose.

kabayiri

mayonnaise wrote: »

The threats, extortion and belittling came exclusively from our side.
From threats to withdraw security cooperation, to threats to turn the UK into a corporate tax haven.
From our chancellor describing the EU as 'the enemy' to our ex-foreign secretary painting EU leaders as Nazi camp guards.

If you think such an approach will deliver the results, you go for it in committed fashion IMO.

What we actually had was loads of noise and no action. It's basically the worst of all tactics.

The educated media laugh at Trump, but he would run rings around any of our politicians when it comes to understanding the deal.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

The educated media laugh at Trump, but he would run rings around any of our politicians when it comes to understanding the deal.

Really? How do you figure that?


This is the man whose advice for May was to "sue the EU". Who Merkel had to explain the basics of trade to. Who still doesn't get that you can't negotiate a trade deal with just Germany. Who has a string of failed business ventures and bankruptcies.



He'd talk a good game, sure, and plenty of Brexiteers would believe him. But nothing would get done, he'd storm off and blame someone else for it.


But I'm honestly not sure he's ever managed a good deal.


Our politicians are bad. But they aren't quite Trump bad.

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

Our government misunderstood how the negotiations would go from the start.

It's a power play, not a negotiation.

Think that you are wide of the mark. There'll be no surprise deep down. Not as if the attitude of certain sections of Brussels will come as a surprise. Same people we've been dealing with for years.

kabayiri

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Think that you are wide of the mark. There'll be no surprise deep down. Not as if the attitude of certain sections of Brussels will come as a surprise. Same people we've been dealing with for years.

Maybe.

There has been more undermining of our position back home than I expected. I thought there might have been more of a cross-party approach.

How naive....expecting politicians to cooperate!