Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

Let's face it; most of that fall out will happen if we leave without a 2nd referendum.
48% of the voters will watch us be pulled out of the EU because apparently the will of the people is unassailable. Some (or most) of the 52% Will be upset because we got the wrong brexit, or it didn't fix their problems.

ukcarper wrote: »

Do you really think another referendum will give us a conclusive ans what if it's 52/48 remain, best of three.

I'm not sure. Bit another inconclusive answer still tells us we need to come up with a better plan and is worth finding out.

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Let's face it; most of that fall out will happen if we leave without a 2nd referendum.
48% of the voters will watch us be pulled out of the EU because apparently the will of the people is unassailable. Some (or most) of the 52% Will be upset because we got the wrong brexit, or it didn't fix their problems.



I'm not sure. Bit another inconclusive answer still tells us we need to come up with a better plan and is worth finding out.

I agree we need a better plan but I believe there is no going back things will never be the same as before the referendum.

gfplux

While a passionate remainer I believe a further referendum should not take place. Frankly referendums are a bad idea and as we have seen lead to strong divisions in British society.

Some here have illustrated that Switzerland use referendums often and appear to live with the results.
Some months ago I heard a Swiss political journalist describe why. The answer is they hold a lot of referendums and so tend to easily move on after the result.
A quick Google brought up that there were 66 (sixty six) referendums in Switzerland between 2011 and 2018 and still counting.

https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/va/vab_2_2_4_1.html

I may be wrong but Britain has had 3 or 4 in 50 years.

I like my democracy the British way with all the apathy that goes with it rather than the Swiss model.

Britain might have to live with the result. Some might say

You won, now suck it up.

Graham_Devon

Herzlos wrote: »

Let's face it; most of that fall out will happen if we leave without a 2nd referendum.
48% of the voters will watch us be pulled out of the EU because apparently the will of the people is unassailable. Some (or most) of the 52% Will be upset because we got the wrong brexit, or it didn't fix their problems.



I'm not sure. Bit another inconclusive answer still tells us we need to come up with a better plan and is worth finding out.

That's just true democracy though.

People were asked a question and they gave an answer. Majority wins.

People will be upset with that, of course they will. Same people are upset with their choice of government doesn't get in. But most seem to get that that's democracy.

Democracy isn't finding ways to ignore the answer and try again.

And remember, not all remainers will be happy with a second referendum. Many of them will see right through it and become uncomfortable themselves with things when they realise our vote doesn't really mean anything at all. The one thing we all have is a right to vote.

We all know why you personally want a second referendum. You wish to change the answer. That is clear and you've stated so. Let's not dress it up as anything more than it is.

I have said I don't really care. What will be will be - though any second referendum will be loaded to ensure the answer is the "correct one". That could mean the way the results work are changed (so no longer 50/50) or the question is changed meaning remain have amuch greater chance to win.

Like I say though, just don't be surprised when it's not only those who voted leave who figure out they have been setup.

Herzlos

Graham, no one is ignoring the answer. A small majority of wanted to leave 2 years ago. "The will of the people" means we should leave.
Now, 2 years on, it seems like the will of the people has shifted. So is the responsible thing to press on anyway, because we voted once already, or to try and gauge what the people now want?

2nd referendum on a subject must be OK because we voted to join in the 70's, so it's a matter of timing. Do we do it know when the landscape has changed or do we wait u til we've been out for a decade and hold one about rejoicing?

Because as much as you guys want leaving to be the end of It, this mess isn't going anywhere for generations.

Enterprise_1701C

Herzlos wrote: »

Graham, no one is ignoring the answer. A small majority of wanted to leave 2 years ago. "The will of the people" means we should leave.
Now, 2 years on, it seems like the will of the people has shifted. So is the responsible thing to press on anyway, because we voted once already, or to try and gauge what the people now want?

2nd referendum on a subject must be OK because we voted to join in the 70's, so it's a matter of timing. Do we do it know when the landscape has changed or do we wait u til we've been out for a decade and hold one about rejoicing?

Because as much as you guys want leaving to be the end of It, this mess isn't going anywhere for generations.

So if, God Forbid, Corbyn got in at the next election, and the sensible people that did not want him in campaigned ceaselessly to overturn the result and got a large number of people behind them, and the people (not parliament) demanded another vote a couple of years later, would we be entitled to one?

Oh, and we didn't vote to join the eu in the 70's, we voted to remain in the Common Market, a totally different entity. So this has been the first and only referendum on the eu.

fatbeetle

I think enough of us have seen the disgusting way the EU has acted and reacted towards us since we voted out, what with threats, extortion, belittling and a distinct lack of cooperation and friendship, to make a second vote an inevitable "OUT"!!

The British people will be treated as deserters following a vote to leave the European Union, Jean-Claude Juncker has warned.

In his greatest intervention in the referendum contest, the President of the European Commission said that the UK would face consequences and be treated as a third country following a break with the EU.

kabayiri

fatbeetle wrote: »

I think enough of us have seen the disgusting way the EU has acted and reacted towards us since we voted out, what with threats, extortion, belittling and a distinct lack of cooperation and friendship, to make a second vote an inevitable "OUT"!!

Our government misunderstood how the negotiations would go from the start.

It's a power play, not a negotiation.

I would have conceded *nothing* right at the start; this means everything on the table : including the millions of EU workers already here.

But then...I am interested in getting a good deal, not looking like a beaten victim like PM May.

lisyloo

fatbeetle wrote: »

I think enough of us have seen the disgusting way the EU has acted and reacted towards us since we voted out, what with threats, extortion, belittling and a distinct lack of cooperation and friendship, to make a second vote an inevitable "OUT"!!

This isn't true and reads as quite emotional.
Two example's Europe have stood beside us against Russia in the Novichok poisioning and Trumps withdrawal from the Paris Accord.

mayonnaise

fatbeetle wrote: »

I think enough of us have seen the disgusting way the EU has acted and reacted towards us since we voted out, what with threats, extortion, belittling and a distinct lack of cooperation and friendship, to make a second vote an inevitable "OUT"!!

The threats, extortion and belittling came exclusively from our side.
From threats to withdraw security cooperation, to threats to turn the UK into a corporate tax haven.
From our chancellor describing the EU as 'the enemy' to our ex-foreign secretary painting EU leaders as Nazi camp guards.