Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

spadoosh wrote: »

I dont owe allegiance to a nation. I owe allegiance to myself. My voice is bigger in a nation state than a super state.

Only in terms of how much of a say you have in the running of that state. Nation state you have 1/50,000,000th, super state you have 1/500,000,000th. Where that falls down is how much voice that state has when doing what you've said you want it to. Does the nation state or superstate have more sway in the world political arena?

spadoosh

Arklight wrote: »

This is an important fact a lot of older Brexiteers don't grasp. An eighteen year old today will have spent multiples more time with digital communities of "people like them" from all over the world, than they are likely to have with their own grandparents.

Young people just aren't very attached to the idea of national exceptionalism because nationhood makes up far less of their identity than before.

Nationhood is irrelevant in the youth, that much is correct. What is relevant to them is their resources and self importance. When they realise theyre far less important as a super state than as a nation state theyll lean to the latter. When they realise they have to do without in order to realise their socialist dreams theyll be reluctant.

Priorities change when people fear they will lose out.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

Only in terms of how much of a say you have in the running of that state. Nation state you have 1/50,000,000th, super state you have 1/500,000,000th. Where that falls down is how much voice that state has when doing what you've said you want it to. Does the nation state or superstate have more sway in the world political arena?

Hands down the superstate.

The world political arena is irrelevent though if the superstate isnt doing what i want it to. Ive got a tiny chance of influencing a nation state, its 10 times more likely than the superstate though.

All well and good have a voice on the world political arena, problem for me is, itll be speaking french or german. Or more likely that there wont be a voice at all as the superstate cant agree on what stance its taking.

Moby

spadoosh wrote: »

Nationhood is irrelevant in the youth, that much is correct. What is relevant to them is their resources and self importance. When they realise theyre far less important as a super state than as a nation state theyll lean to the latter. When they realise they have to do without in order to realise their socialist dreams theyll be reluctant.

Priorities change when people fear they will lose out.

Why do you think being in a nation state makes your views and desires more important? There is a lot of evidence that some groups in said state feel less valued than others. Women were only given the vote 100 years ago. In the last few months we've seen how the Windrush generation have suffered at the hands of our state. Much of the legislation passed by the EU parliament has improved workers rights in this state....health standards, safety standards, working time directive etc. Some of the most opressed peoples in the world live in small states!

Thrugelmir

Originally Posted by Arklight
An eighteen year old today will have spent multiples more time with digital communities of "people like them" from all over the world, than they are likely to have with their own grandparents.

On my global travels I have found people anything but generic. As it's personal life experience that shapes us over our entire lifetime. Not digital contact.

spadoosh

Moby wrote: »

Why do you think being in a nation state makes your views and desires more important? There is a lot of evidence that some groups in said state feel less valued than others. Women were only given the vote 100 years ago. In the last few months we've seen how the Windrush generation have suffered at the hands of our state. Much of the legislation passed by the EU parliament has improved workers rights in this state....health standards, safety standards, working time directive etc. Some of the most opressed peoples in the world live in small states!

Like switzerland?

Or are you on about the states where they havent had democracy in action for the last few hundred years?

Its about accountability. We do live in a democracy and i can hold those who wish to oppress me to account.

If you argument is the UK had a veto in the EU then they arent making decisions. If your argument is holding MEPs to account, democratically youre more likely to be on the losing side.

If the EU wanted to follow in the footsteps of the US (that is the founding principles of the US) im all for it. They dont though, they want to dictate every aspect of my life to me.

Small governance pushes the onus of responsibility on the individual, large governance as you so rightly say tends to disregard the individual.

I believe in autonomy going as far as the individual, as such my views just arent compatible with the EU in the slightest.

If you want to live in the matrix thats fine, dont expect us all to though.

Herzlos

spadoosh wrote: »

Its about accountability. We do live in a democracy and i can hold those who wish to oppress me to account.

I think the UK nation state is too big to have any direct accountability. There's literally nothing I can do that can depose a Tory government (being that my county has never been held by Tories, as far as I can tell). It'd need a huge chunk of the population to vote in the same way and the oppressed are usually left behind because there are usually least likely to be able to vote for myriad reasons. I don't see the EU as being any worse for my say going anywhere.


I can vote for my local council in a sort of meaningful way, so maybe we should drop back down to the county-state.



Though I have to admit that being a lefty I agree with a lot more coming out of the EU than the Tories. The Tories are doing so well on the whole oppression front that the UN have sent an investigator to look at our poverty problem.

spadoosh

Herzlos wrote: »

I think the UK nation state is too big to have any direct accountability. There's literally nothing I can do that can depose a Tory government (being that my county has never been held by Tories, as far as I can tell). It'd need a huge chunk of the population to vote in the same way and the oppressed are usually left behind because there are usually least likely to be able to vote for myriad reasons. I don't see the EU as being any worse for my say going anywhere.


I can vote for my local council in a sort of meaningful way, so maybe we should drop back down to the county-state.



Though I have to admit that being a lefty I agree with a lot more coming out of the EU than the Tories. The Tories are doing so well on the whole oppression front that the UN have sent an investigator to look at our poverty problem.

Youre probably right on the direct accountability but its still more direct than the superstate.

I live in lancashire where fracking has recently got underway, the decision was made in westminster to overrule the county. County states wouldve worked in my favour in that instance.

Im not sure where on the political spectrum i am. Im somewhere around libertarian/anarchist, like i said, just not compatible with the over governing EU.

Moby

spadoosh wrote: »

Like switzerland?

Or are you on about the states where they havent had democracy in action for the last few hundred years?

Its about accountability. We do live in a democracy and i can hold those who wish to oppress me to account.

If you argument is the UK had a veto in the EU then they arent making decisions. If your argument is holding MEPs to account, democratically youre more likely to be on the losing side.

If the EU wanted to follow in the footsteps of the US (that is the founding principles of the US) im all for it. They dont though, they want to dictate every aspect of my life to me.

Small governance pushes the onus of responsibility on the individual, large governance as you so rightly say tends to disregard the individual.

I believe in autonomy going as far as the individual, as such my views just arent compatible with the EU in the slightest.

If you want to live in the matrix thats fine, dont expect us all to though.

All the states that are in the EU are democratic and accountable. All the arguments you deploy re. the EU are just as valid against Westminster. Re. the US Yep those founding priciples are bringing the country together aren't they:-)

spadoosh

Moby wrote: »

All the states that are in the EU are democratic and accountable. All the arguments you deploy re. the EU are just as valid against Westminster. Re. the US Yep those founding priciples are bringing the country together aren't they:-)

I agree they are. Its still easier taking on one lion than a pride though.

Theyre principles of law, what has that to do with bringing a country together. Some wish to reneg on those commitemnts to the detriment of others. The constitution was designed so that couldnt happen and they dont like it. America is a long way from what was envisioned hence why i specifically centred on the original principles.