Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Only last week, Juncker assured Varadkar and Coveney that there wouldn't be a hard border. The UK position is also that there won't be one. So maybe it is that simple and the EU have simply tried to gain leverage by weaponising the border.

But if there's no problem with a hard border why have we let the EU weappnoze it and why are we so scared of it?

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

But if there's no problem with a hard border why have we let the EU weappnoze it and why are we so scared of it?

Because May is stupid?

Tromking

Moby wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about.......'homegrown self-loathing Leftist'????
Is that you saying some of us that are from the UK are not patriotic enough?
Why on earth can't you just understand that patriotism is not important anymore to some of us. It's just the acceptable face of nativism and is a tired worn out idea based on the false story that you owe allegiance, affiliation etc to people who live within some arbitrarily drawn territory. Incidentally the boundaries of such territory are decided by decisions made by the rich elite. Those same rich powerful people sent people like you and me to die in their wars over such territories. We were the cannon fodder for the resolution of their disputes and will continue to be cannon fodder until the scales fall from the eyes of the naive.
It's not self loathing that drives me Tromking, I just don't buy that story anymore.

I don’t think my preference for democratic nation states over supranational entities is borne out of a sense of mere patriotism Moby.
I’m not sure the EU is going to be the vehicle for the internationalist agenda you appear to be seeking either, if it was, why the need for an EU army, more cannon fodder perhaps?

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Because May is stupid?

I'm not sure she's as stupid as she makes out, but that still doesn't explain it.

No-one in any of the Leave campaigns, none of the journalists, none of the civil servants, have discovered this golden goose?
You can bet that if someone anywhere in Whitehall had an idea that had a solution to the Eire border issue it'd have been forwarded up the chain in moments.



You're essentially arguing that the only reason we're tied on the "no border infrastructure" thing is that the entire government system is too stupid, and thus we should just get on with letting them do Brexit?



Then there's the EU; would they be pressing us so hard on it if they thought it could be solved that easily? Or that they'd allow this backstop knowing that it could be voided so easily?

Tromking wrote: »

I don’t think my preference for democratic nation states over supranational entities is borne out of a sense of mere patriotism Moby.

So would you prefer going back to the village state? I'm just not sure why the cut-off for co-operation is at what we regard as current nations rather than counties, city states of individual villages?

I’m not sure the EU is going to be the vehicle for the internationalist agenda you appear to be seeking either

It's going to be a lot more effective than the UK on it's own.

if it was, why the need for an EU army, more cannon fodder perhaps?

Efficiency mostly, as well as co-ordinated response and reduced reliance on reluctant partners (UK and US).

Thrugelmir

Originally Posted by Herzlos
But if there's no problem with a hard border why have we let the EU weappnoze it and why are we so scared of it?

From 1971. One suspects a period of time of which you have knowledge ands the depth of feelings regarding a united Ireland.

The area patrolled by the Hussars, some of whom have now been replaced by members of the Royal Scottish Dragoon Guards, includes 44 unapproved roads and is believed to be that most used for arms and gelignite smuggling. The territory is strongly Republican, and local people have been aroused by the stories told about British troops by their friends and families in Belfast.

On the border, nearly all have friends and relations attached to the IRA. One otherwise kindly woman near Crossmaglen said: “I would personally like to strangle every British soldier in Northern Ireland.” This is fairly common rhetoric, but it indicates a fair depth of feeling.

ukcarper

I crossed the border a couple of times in 1970s and didn't get stopped at border once. Did get stopped driving towards border by Army when in NI but they were more concerned about car in front of us and waved us through after a couple of questions.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

So would you prefer going back to the village state? I'm just not sure why the cut-off for co-operation is at what we regard as current nations rather than counties, city states of individual villages?

It's going to be a lot more effective than the UK on it's own.

Efficiency mostly, as well as co-ordinated response and reduced reliance on reluctant partners (UK and US).

Co-operation has existed at nation state level in Western Europe since WW2 quite nicely. NATO has kept us united and safe and faced down the USSR threat, whereas the EEC/EU has given us wealth and economic security.
I don’t sense that a Federal Europe overseeing both our security and economic well-being is where the European peoples are at the moment.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

Co-operation has existed at nation state level in Western Europe since WW2 quite nicely. NATO has kept us united and safe and faced down the USSR threat, whereas the EEC/EU has given us wealth and economic security.

And we're much more closely integrated and co-operative now than pre-EEC.

I don’t sense that a Federal Europe overseeing both our security and economic well-being is where the European peoples are at the moment.

I think it makes perfect sense; it helps us make the most of our resources and our NATO commitments.

I think some of the concern comes from how it's described in the media - the EU isn't going to have it's own militia or direct army control, it's more a co-ordinating effort where forces are still controlled by local powers but with better resource sharing and planning. We don't all need to be able to provide everything or maintain superiority in everything if we can share resources in a coherent way.

gfplux

Brexiters just love a Brexit bonus story.
Warm your hearts on this one.
500 jobs saved.
Oh and 500 jobs lost because of Brexit

https://news.sky.com/story/german-manufacturer-schaeffler-to-shut-two-uk-plants-after-brexit-11546123

cogito

Herzlos wrote: »

And we're much more closely integrated and co-operative now than pre-EEC.






I think it makes perfect sense; it helps us make the most of our resources and our NATO commitments.

I think some of the concern comes from how it's described in the media - the EU isn't going to have it's own militia or direct army control, it's more a co-ordinating effort where forces are still controlled by local powers but with better resource sharing and planning. We don't all need to be able to provide everything or maintain superiority in everything if we can share resources in a coherent way.

The EU already has its own armed police militia and it's called EUGENDFOR. Read up on the Treaty of Velsen. It's powers are frightening in the wrong hands.

And up pops Macron right on cue to say that the EU needs its own army.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-46108633