Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

buglawton

I think we're over-familiar with just how bad those options are.

We don't want to be 'given' an option because we're not a bunch of tropical island tribespeople negotiating with a powerful colonial master. Or are we?

Herzlos

buglawton wrote: »

I think we're over-familiar with just how bad those options are.

We don't want to be 'given' an option because we're not a bunch of tropical island tribespeople negotiating with a powerful colonial master. Or are we?

A club we joined and shaped that has rules we need to follow is not a colonial master.
We're leaving the EU, so we don't get to make the new rules.

Just like if I want to buy a McDonald's I need to follow their rules and order from the menu.

Arklight

buglawton wrote: »

I think we're over-familiar with just how bad those options are.

We don't want to be 'given' an option because we're not a bunch of tropical island tribespeople negotiating with a powerful colonial master. Or are we?

If anyone would know about that it would be the British...

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

Of course it can.

Brexit vote has already shone a light on the public mood, like no other recent political election.

It was also possible that it inspired Trump's selection. There is also a wave of right wing political resurgence around the globe, Brazil being the most recent.

Brexit could easily lead to harder edged politics.

This could hopefully kill off socialism for a generation, and I won't be shedding any tears at that.

How does the rise of fascism fix anything. Trump, Bolsonaro, Orban etc are simply populist haters that manipulate the xenophobic fears of the gullible....... Hate the gays, hate immigrants, bring back dictatorship, bring back capital punishment, etc......seen it all before! They are not going to sweep away socialism by the way. That's just petit bourgeois wishful thinking. Hitlers brown shirts had the same hopes and we all saw how that turned out. People like me and millions of others will call them out for what they are;)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/03/liverpool-runs-far-right-marchers-out-of-town
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/15/anti-nazi-league-founders-call-for-new-national-campaign

Tromking

Moby wrote: »

How does the rise of fascism fix anything. Trump, Bolsonaro, Orban etc are simply populist haters that manipulate the xenophobic fears of the gullible....... Hate the gays, hate immigrants, bring back dictatorship, bring back capital punishment, etc......seen it all before. They are not going to sweep away socialism by the way. That's just petit bourgeois wishful thinking. Hitlers brown shirts had the same hopes and we all saw how that turned out:rotfl:

The current rise of populism has less to do with fascism vs socialism and is more to with the partial rejection of the liberal consensus that has held sway in western democracies for a generation or two.
The federalist ideal in Europe is dying on its backside and is doing so because the people of Europe are voting against the traditional social democratic parties that used to advocate it.
I saw an interesting speech by the female leader of AfD in the Bundestag the other day, in the presence of a chastened Merkel she talked of European unity not through federalism, but through subsidiarity.

gfplux

kabayiri wrote: »

My argument centres around what you do with the revenue.

The money has to be ploughed back into dedicated roads/lanes for trucks, alongside much better integration with rail and sea.

Lost time is also money. Too often now there are relatively mundane breakdowns which bring stretches of the M6 to a crawl.

It's clear we have no slack in the system, and it's only getting worse.

(Well, worse until Amazon are delivering everything by automated airships+drones I suppose)

I agree with much of your post BUT you know better than I that there is so little money that any increase in revenue will not be directed as you hope.

wunferall

buglawton wrote: »

I think we're over-familiar with just how bad those options are.

We don't want to be 'given' an option because we're not a bunch of tropical island tribespeople negotiating with a powerful colonial master. Or are we?

This country has traded with EU countries for millenia without problem.
Other countries around the world have also traded with EU countries without problem.
Then along comes the EEC which morphed into the EU - and all of a sudden trade becomes a problem.
"You must do this to get that."
So it's pretty obvious who is the new would-be colonial master from those facts.

Moby

Aaron Banks looking very slippery and defensive on Marr this morning. Hopefully we'll now discover the true source of those funds in his shell company 'Rock Holdings'. He also said.........
“The corruption I’ve seen in British politics, the sewer that exists and the disgraceful behaviour of the government over what they’re doing with Brexit and how they’re selling it out – means if I had my time again I think we would probably have been better to vote Remain and not unleash these demons.” Such rank hypocrisy!

ukcarper

Moby wrote: »

Aaron Banks looking very slippery and defensive on Marr this morning. Hopefully we'll now discover the true source of those funds in his shell company 'Rock Holdings'. He also said.........
“The corruption I’ve seen in British politics, the sewer that exists and the disgraceful behaviour of the government over what they’re doing with Brexit and how they’re selling it out – means if I had my time again I think we would probably have been better to vote Remain and not unleash these demons.” Such rank hypocrisy!

I think he made a reasonably good job of defending himself and we will have to see what police inquiry finds out he didn't seem overly concerned.

wunferall

Tromking wrote: »

The current rise of populism has less to do with fascism vs socialism and is more to with the partial rejection of the liberal consensus that has held sway in western democracies for a generation or two.
The federalist ideal in Europe is dying on its backside and is doing so because the people of Europe are voting against the traditional social democratic parties that used to advocate it.
I saw an interesting speech by the female leader of AfD in the Bundestag the other day, in the presence of a chastened Merkel she talked of European unity not through federalism, but through subsidiarity.

Have you seen some of the latest reports of this increasing support for populism and denials of EU popularity?
I understand that this will undoubtedly provoke howls of either rage or denial from our usual suspects who insist upon trying to tell us that the EU is just fine and dandy and stable and great and .......

First and those nasty poll things that remainers love when they are pro-EU but for some reason hate when they're not, and this suggesting that far right support in France has grown to reach 30%.
It's not looking good for the EU Parliamentary elections.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/04/french-far-right-overtakes-macron-eu-parliament-election-poll/


Then this from the Express (waits for more howls) and a video of a Dutch interview of Nigel Farage where the interviewer tells Farage that anti-EU speech is stifled and that the EU uses fake polls to try & show that they are popular when they're not.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1040404/Nexit-Nigel-Farage-Dutch-TV-European-EU-project-referendum


No the EU is probably not on the verge of collapse (though no sensible person would deny the possibility) but as the forthcoming elections will undoubtedly show, the peoples of the EU are increasingly disillusioned with the EU's federalist project.