Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

CKhalvashi

ukcarper wrote: »

I believe it's the Irish taking it to court so we will have to see but the relationship has been soured and if it they say we can you can be sure that the EU will want to take away our privileges. I wouldn't vote remain again if I thought there was a chance we would lose veto and or be expected to join Euro.

We are ineligible to join the Euro at this time.

I believe if we offered to make a reasonable contribution towards costs, there would be no issue with manny of the privileges we have now, however my stance has been made clear numerous times.

Enterprise_1701C

Arklight wrote: »

No they haven't. Blubbing Daily Mail headlines about interfering eurocrats stealing your freedom when you can't name a single instance of this happening, is not listing an advantage.

You hate EU laws, but can't name a single one that has inconvenienced you or that the UK has formally objected to.

You persist in complaining that EU officials are unelected while being apparently ignorant of the fact that they are appointed by elected officials of each constituent country, exactly like in the UK parliament.

OK, it's not exactly the same as our Parliament. As a proud British patriot you have a hereditary head of state, a hereditary aristocracy ruling over you that still that has 92 hereditary Lords sitting in the second chamber for no other reason than accident of birth.

Which makes them all right at home with the British civil service whose main recruitment criteria is whether you walk into the interview wearing a tie from Eton or Harrow.

If only those corrupt Europeans would learn from us.

I rest my point.

Cakeguts

As it happens I didn't vote but what really really annoys me is the atitude of some of the selfish people who want to halt Brexit because it doesn't suit them. There is always some reason that they feel that they personally will lose something that they want to keep even though there is no guarantee that the EU will continue to provide it. There is no thought for the people who voted Leave and if challenged they say that the Leavers didn't understand what they were voting for. How dare they say this and totally invalidate the choices and opinons of others who want something different. The majority that wanted something else.



No one is that special that they can invalidate another's wishes just because they personally feel that they might lose out on something. This invalidation of other people's choices is not pleasant.



It makes me think that some of the remainers may have been spoilt as children and expect to get whatever they want by running down the choices of others and trying to force them to give them what they want like their parents did.



The fact that the EU is a dicatatorship means that they can take away anything that remainers think they will get out of staying in the EU without any accountability. The Martin Selmayr appointment shows that they don't care if they manipulate paperwork to make it look as if it was all above board which it wasn't. This could be the tip of the iceberg. They could have been fiddling the paperwork for years and probably have which is why they thought they could do it again and no one would notice. The ombudsman report on this was not accepted by the EU in total so what power does the ombudsman have? None. The EU can just say that they don't accept the report on anything they choose to. If an electricity board or bank did this in the UK there would be people protesting about the corruption. However because it is the EU and some people feel they might lose something if the UK leaves they overlook this.



So what I am getting from Remainers in lots of places is.


1 You can't do this. I am more important than you and I didn't get what I wanted so you people who voted leave have got it all wrong. Believe lies etc. All without any evidence that they did.



2 If you do this my children will lose something that I think that they might get although there is no evidence that even if the UK stays in the EU that will be the case.


3 I am quite happy to overlook corruption and an non accountability just so that I can get what I WANT.



4 I am such a special person that the people who voted Leave have no right to do that and so we must make sure that they can't get what they want.



5 In order to get what I WANT several million people will have to give up what they want.

ukcarper

CKhalvashi wrote: »

We are ineligible to join the Euro at this time.

I believe if we offered to make a reasonable contribution towards costs, there would be no issue with manny of the privileges we have now, however my stance has been made clear numerous times.

Just because you believe it doesn't make it correct.

Herzlos

Brexit doesn't suit anyone (except a few elites), that's the point. It's not selfishness in a lot of cases (I think I might actually be better off post Brexit) for the people who want us to confirm we really want to jump off that cliff.

CKhalvashi wrote: »

We are ineligible to join the Euro at this time.

I believe if we offered to make a reasonable contribution towards costs, there would be no issue with manny of the privileges we have now, however my stance has been made clear numerous times.

That's my view as well. A50 is a declaration of intention to leave, it's not actually leaving, thus we shouldn't have any problems with revoking it. If we offer to pay the wasted costs of Brexit, then none of the EU27 would really have any cause to complain.
We'd have a strained relationship whilst we prove a trustworthy member again, but we've always been a difficult member and that relationship isn't going to be any better on the outside.


That said, I also feel that re-joining the EU on the same terms as a new member will still be better for us than Brexit.



A 3 way transferable vote would be the way to go, so that you don't need to worry about splitting it too many ways (some option will get to 50%+1).

cogito

Unfortunately, the possibility of another vote is less than zero. I would love it to happen because many of those who voted to remain but were lukewarm about it would vote leave because the EU have shown themselves to be utterly obdurate and inflexible as well as insulting to Teresa May. Then you have the remainers who might still be inclined to vote remain but would vote leave instead because they already voted and want to see the original result respected. A 60/40 leave majority is my guess.

Herzlos

Cakeguts wrote: »

No one is that special that they can invalidate another's wishes just because they personally feel that they might lose out on something. This invalidation of other people's choices is not pleasant.

No-one is saying that though. We're saying that since the vote was so close (the majority was about 1.5x the number of people who marched against it yesterday), and that things have materially changed so much from the promises (being generous here) of the Leave campaign, and that the government is deadlocked about it and running out of time, do we need to stop and figure out what the people actually want?


I strongly believe that we need to address *why* people voted for Brexit, because I'm pretty confident that for most, Brexit won't actually help anything.

It makes me think that some of the remainers may have been spoilt as children and expect to get whatever they want by running down the choices of others and trying to force them to give them what they want like their parents did.

You may have this backwards. Leavers are the ones being the sore losers "We won, get over it", who don't seem to understand compromise.

The fact that the EU is a dicatatorship

But it's not. It's either elected directly, indirectly, or has some people hired by elected peoples.
It doesn't have a party leader who was trying to bypass parliament, for instance.

means that they can take away anything that remainers think they will get out of staying in the EU without any accountability.

Except it can't do that either.

The Martin Selmayr appointment shows that they don't care if they manipulate paperwork to make it look as if it was all above board which it wasn't.

I'll give you that, it's dodgy.

This could be the tip of the iceberg. They could have been fiddling the paperwork for years and probably have which is why they thought they could do it again and no one would notice. The ombudsman report on this was not accepted by the EU in total so what power does the ombudsman have? None. The EU can just say that they don't accept the report on anything they choose to. If an electricity board or bank did this in the UK there would be people protesting about the corruption. However because it is the EU and some people feel they might lose something if the UK leaves they overlook this.

You could say the same for any other large body. Our government certainly isn't any better.

1 You can't do this. I am more important than you and I didn't get what I wanted so you people who voted leave have got it all wrong. Believe lies etc. All without any evidence that they did.

I haven't seen that at all. It must be a given now that Leave was based on lies, thus some small portion of voters must have been mislead.

2 If you do this my children will lose something that I think that they might get although there is no evidence that even if the UK stays in the EU that will be the case.

That's a fair point though; my children will, through us leaving the EU, lose access to any EU perk we don't manage to negotiate (like Erasmus, or the EU27's job markets, or university funding) and will likely have an all round poorer quality of life due to cost of living increases, reduced economic output, employment, opportunities etc. Or do you think all of that will improve? Because even Reese-Mogg doesn't.

3 I am quite happy to overlook corruption and an non accountability just so that I can get what I WANT.

Leave are willing to overlook a lot more corruption than Remain.

4 I am such a special person that the people who voted Leave have no right to do that and so we must make sure that they can't get what they want.

Not the case either. It's just madness to make any decision of any depth based on such a weak majority. I wouldn't order pizza for a group with a 51.9% agreement, let alone change an economy.

5 In order to get what I WANT several million people will have to give up what they want.

In order for us as a country to prosper and move on, we need to decide what we actually want. Almost all of the 17.4 million Leave voters and going to be unhappy anyway; you're not getting rid of migrants, your working conditions (or pension conditions) won't improve, your infrastructure is still long out of date, your NHS is still falling apart.

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Unfortunately, the possibility of another vote is less than zero. I would love it to happen because many of those who voted to remain but were lukewarm about it would vote leave because the EU have shown themselves to be utterly obdurate and inflexible as well as insulting to Teresa May. Then you have the remainers who might still be inclined to vote remain but would vote leave instead because they already voted and want to see the original result respected. A 60/40 leave majority is my guess.

Apparently there are internal plans being drawn for another vote currently, so the possibility is very much above zero.
A 60/40 majority to Leave would be brilliant, it'd stop all of the uncertainty immediately, and you'd get all of us traitors onside.


However, whilst a few Remainers have been disillusioned with the EU and flipped to Leave, and some may vote against their wishes due to some bizarre twist on democracy, how can you be so sure there aren't at least as many Leavers who've changed their mind as the details start to appear? All the polling shows a shift towards Remain.



I'd predict something closer to a 54/46 majority to Remain.

Masomnia

Herzlos wrote: »

Apparently there are internal plans being drawn for another vote currently, so the possibility is very much above zero.
A 60/40 majority to Leave would be brilliant, it'd stop all of the uncertainty immediately, and you'd get all of us traitors onside.


However, whilst a few Remainers have been disillusioned with the EU and flipped to Leave, and some may vote against their wishes due to some bizarre twist on democracy, how can you be so sure there aren't at least as many Leavers who've changed their mind as the details start to appear? All the polling shows a shift towards Remain.



I'd predict something closer to a 54/46 majority to Remain.

Has anyone from the EU categorically stated we can remain on the same terms?

ukcarper

Herzlos wrote: »

Apparently there are internal plans being drawn for another vote currently, so the possibility is very much above zero.
A 60/40 majority to Leave would be brilliant, it'd stop all of the uncertainty immediately, and you'd get all of us traitors onside.


However, whilst a few Remainers have been disillusioned with the EU and flipped to Leave, and some may vote against their wishes due to some bizarre twist on democracy, how can you be so sure there aren't at least as many Leavers who've changed their mind as the details start to appear? All the polling shows a shift towards Remain.



I'd predict something closer to a 54/46 majority to Remain.

Looking at polls it's still to close to call and I don't think any side would get a large majority and a new referendum would compound the divisions the first referendum caused.