Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

mrginge

Daniel54 wrote: »

I will answer you as best I can

Firstly I concur that resorting to perjorative terms demeans legitimate debate.Let’s stop using words like quitling or remoaner.

Like everyone else with an enquiring mind,I have learnt a lot since the referendum.It would be good to think that we have moved into the practalties of where we are

The EU is the deepest and most comprehensive free trade agreement between independent nations in the world.This has been of benefit to the UK.Frictionless trade with geographical neighbours works in that way.

I hadn’t realised quite how much the EU ,with our support, had been leading the charge in reducing trade frictions around the world through their various agreements,either full FTAs or other agreements such as Everything but Arms for the poorest nations

Try as I might,I can see no advantage to our country in
foregoing the benefits that membership of the EU confers.

To reverse the question,whY do you think leaving the EU is to the benefit of our country’s citizens ?

What buglawton said.

FTAs are fine. FOM is an appalling concept without aligned cross border labour legislation. It disincentivises domestic training for the richer countries and incentivises migration away from the poorer to the long term detriment of both. It disenfranchises just about all of our lower skilled workers who know they have zero chance to go work in other countries.

mrginge

Moby wrote: »

The four freedoms are regarded as crucial towards reducing the economic disparity between East and West Europe. It's worked......those countries have now been drawn into the EU's orbit instead of Russia's. The balkans, a traditional hot bed of ethnic strife are now more stable.

Yes moby, the joy of Balkan states being asset stripped because we need a Starbucks every 2 miles.

https://www.politico.eu/article/latvia-a-disappearing-nation-migration-population-decline/

Backbiter

mrginge wrote: »

At no point in the last two years have they tried to pursuade us of the benefits of the eu. It’s all negative ‘you’re thick, you don’t know what you voted for, it’s too difficult, we told you so...etc’
If it’s a mistake, why? Tell us what’s great about the eu and why we should be actively wanting to stay in it.

While there has been a lot of mudslinging, there's been tons of stuff highlighting the benefits of staying in the EU. It's true that a lot of it has been framed negatively, as in 'it'll be disastrous to throw away the membership deal we currently have', but the benefits are enormous.

Here's a few points I posted a while ago:

1 As EU members we are able to access the European Single Market which means we are able to sell unlimited products, and services made in the UK totally free of tariffs and duties.
This means that the UK can import parts and raw materials relatively cheaply keep cost of production low and it also means that UK made goods are competitively priced in the largest bloc of customers on the planet.
Combined, this makes the UK a great destination for UK and foreign manufacturers to invest and create British jobs, and help build the UK economy. Without this unlimited free trade, it is guaranteed that investment in the UK economy would slow down.
The UK has received over £1,000 billion (aka £1 trillion) of foreign investment into the UK economy from countries all around the world. A large portion of this is to build products in the UK to sell tariff free into the EU. Being in the EU gives us tariff-free access that leaving will bring to an end. This will make us poorer and cost jobs.
2. While we pay some £8 billion net each year, we get a significant amount back in farming subsidies and various grants to boost infrastructure in poorer area, and we get back at least £127 billion from trade.
I'm sure I don't need to reiterate the point that ending frictionless trade threatens to turn Kent into a car park, which will also hinder tourists' access to the EU and threatens food and medical supplies too, as I'm sure you're aware of that.
In my view, to throw all that away is a destructive act of insanity.

Moby

mrginge wrote: »

Yes moby, the joy of Balkan states being asset stripped because we need a Starbucks every 2 miles.

https://www.politico.eu/article/latvia-a-disappearing-nation-migration-population-decline/

Things balance out over time. The fact is our lower skill workers have been failed by our Govmt not the EU. Immigrants and moslems are the scapegoat.

https://www.ft.com/content/2329a046-ba6f-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/17/divided-britain-study-finds-huge-chasm-in-attitudes

buglawton

I don't often use the phrase 'straw man argument' but in this case...

cogito

Moby wrote: »

The four freedoms are regarded as crucial towards reducing the economic disparity between East and West Europe. It's worked......those countries have now been drawn into the EU's orbit instead of Russia's. The balkans, a traditional hot bed of ethnic strife are now more stable.

More stable than what? The Balkans are simmering away with ethnic and territorial disputes throughout (including an unsettled dispute over the Gulf of Piran between Slovenia and Croatia, who, IIRC, are members of the EU).

The status of Kosovo has never been accepted by Serbia and there are talks of a territory exchange between them so that Serbs living in Kosovo will be absorbed into Serbia and vice versa. This in itself is inflaming tensions.

Republica Srpska wants to secede from Bosnia while Russia quietly stirs the pot. Bosnia Herzegovina is a complete and utter mess which the Dayton accords did nothing to solve.

The only country of the Western Balkans which does not have territorial claims on its neighbours is Montenegro.

When I was in Bosnia recently, I was told that in the Balkans, WW2 ended in 1945 but WW1 is still being fought. Anyone who thinks that the Balkans are stable is a fool and the EU have done nothing to help by pulling the rug on their possible accession.

cogito

Moby wrote: »

Is the UN a country?

No and it makes no pretence of being one. What makes you think that it has either a parliament or an army?

Moby

cogito wrote: »

More stable than what? The Balkans are simmering away with ethnic and territorial disputes throughout (including an unsettled dispute over the Gulf of Piran between Slovenia and Croatia, who, IIRC, are members of the EU).

The status of Kosovo has never been accepted by Serbia and there are talks of a territory exchange between them so that Serbs living in Kosovo will be absorbed into Serbia and vice versa. This in itself is inflaming tensions.

Republica Srpska wants to secede from Bosnia while Russia quietly stirs the pot. Bosnia Herzegovina is a complete and utter mess which the Dayton accords did nothing to solve.

The only country of the Western Balkans which does not have territorial claims on its neighbours is Montenegro.

When I was in Bosnia recently, I was told that in the Balkans, WW2 ended in 1945 but WW1 is still being fought. Anyone who thinks that the Balkans are stable is a fool and the EU have done nothing to help by pulling the rug on their possible accession.

Everything you say above I agree with. The point is though is that their possible future accession to the EU is an aspiration which helps promote democracy in the region. What we know from history is that nationalist forces unfettered by international co-operation would make things infinitely worse.

Moby

cogito wrote: »

No and it makes no pretence of being one. What makes you think that it has either a parliament or an army?

Never said it did.

Moby

mrginge wrote: »

What buglawton said.

FTAs are fine. FOM is an appalling concept without aligned cross border labour legislation. It disincentivises domestic training for the richer countries and incentivises migration away from the poorer to the long term detriment of both. It disenfranchises just about all of our lower skilled workers who know they have zero chance to go work in other countries.

It's called free market capitalism.....Mogg and Johnson love it!;)