Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

Remain/Leave aside, I find this interesting.

If you were an EU federalist then once Brexit clears, the whole process could really play into your hands.

The argument that countries are effectively bound in to one another would be used to show others that leaving doesn't work.

If there some cancellation of Brexit (in whatever form), the future is likely to more integration with the EU. A quasi in/out stance won't really cut it for our EU partners.

Patriotism, nationalism etc worked in the 20th century. These ideas made you believe that you owed affinity to the stranger that lived 100 miles away but none to the stranger that lived 1000 miles away. The world is changing fast however. Integration with your neighbours is the only long term, responsible answer. Nationalist populism only creates division and hate in which those who see themselves losing their influence and control retreat to their silos.

Enterprise_1701C

Moby wrote: »

Patriotism, nationalism etc worked in the 20th century. These ideas made you believe that you owed affinity to the stranger that lived 100 miles away but none to the stranger that lived 1000 miles away. The world is changing fast however. Integration with your neighbours is the only long term, responsible answer. Nationalist populism only creates division and hate in which those who see themselves losing their influence and control retreat to their silos.

So you expect the eu to become one country fairly rapidly? I can think of at least a couple of countries (beside the UK) that would not be happy with that.

It reads as the eu basically want to dismantle history, destroy that which countries value and what they are, who they are. Sounds like what the germans tried to do twice last century. We stood up against it then too.

I am not saying the whole world will not unite in a couple of hundred years, but it has to be the whole world and it has to leave countries with their own identities (the eu do not seem to appreciate this fact), and it has to happen gradually and naturally. This eu thing is way too early and way too fast.

kabayiri

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

So you expect the eu to become one country fairly rapidly? I can think of at least a couple of countries (beside the UK) that would not be happy with that.
...

I'm curious about unions within unions too.

If the EU does push for much greater integration, then why wouldn't a place like Scotland or Basque Spain push to be primary members of the larger union?

Change will suit some more than others I suspect.

undetterred

Herzlos wrote: »

Because it's very easy to leave the EU.

It's impossible to leave the EU whilst enjoying all the benefits of the EU, though.

Benefits? Un-controlled immigration.....

Herzlos

undetterred wrote: »

Benefits? Un-controlled immigration.....

We have controls over migration, we just don't use them.


We essentially want to be in the EU, but with different migration powers, no contribution and not following their rules.

We still want all of their trading arrangements, customs free trade with them, membership of all of their other bodies (from aviation to atomic energy), freedom of services, goods and capital, research funding, project collaboration and security.


So yes, we're wanting all of the benefits of the EU but without the bits we view as downsides.



If we wanted to take an off-the-shelf trading agreement such as the EU has been suggesting for 2 years now, we could leave the EU in a couple of weeks. But we don't want an existing agreement, we want our cake and eat it deal.

Moby

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

So you expect the eu to become one country fairly rapidly? I can think of at least a couple of countries (beside the UK) that would not be happy with that.

It reads as the eu basically want to dismantle history, destroy that which countries value and what they are, who they are. Sounds like what the germans tried to do twice last century. We stood up against it then too.

I am not saying the whole world will not unite in a couple of hundred years, but it has to be the whole world and it has to leave countries with their own identities (the eu do not seem to appreciate this fact), and it has to happen gradually and naturally. This eu thing is way too early and way too fast.

It would help if you stopped seeing the EU as a 'country'. The clue is in the name...it's a community of countries developing towards a federation. Its based on the idea that narrow national identity hasn't worked in Europe. Two huge wars, Napoleon, Franco-Prussian, Spain etc made that clear! Europhobes are so fond of describing the EU as a tyranny taking away their 'national' identity....but that's patent nonsense... most people have more than one affinity. I'm Welsh, British and European and see no contradiction in that. Irish people are very proud Celts but also love being European....I'd say the same for a lot of Scots as well.


You don't seem to understand that if you are Welsh, Scottish or Irish, the biggest threat to your 'national' identity historically was not the EU... it was English nationalism energised by an English monarchy set on expanding it's territories. of course we have now hopefully moved on to subsidiarity as a means of curtailing nationalist excess. We call it the United Kingdom.

The idea of subsidiarity is written into the Maastricht Treaty; local decisions which affect limited numbers of people should be left to them! That's true sovereignty.


If people don't like the EU, campaign to change it. If immigration is an issue....use the powers we already have to control it! Blair chose to open the borders to East Europe immigration because he believed it would boost the economy and drastically underestimated the numbers that would come.


By leaving the EU altogether we are in effect damaging our future prosperity and status and ensuring that we will not be at the forefront of international political developments and solutions. Why do you think Putin loves Brexit....he knows it weakens us!

fatbeetle

Wages excluding bonuses have risen at their fastest pace in nearly 10 years, official figures show.

Pay rose by 3.1% in the three months to August, compared with a year ago, while inflation for the same period was 2.5%.

Last week, Bank of England chief economist Andy Haldane said he saw signs of a "new dawn" for wage growth.

The latest official data also showed unemployment fell by 47,000 to 1.36 million in the three months to August. The jobless rate remained at 4%.

David Freeman, the Office for National Statistic's (ONS) head of labour market, said: "People's regular monthly wage packets grew at their strongest rate in almost a decade, but, allowing for inflation, the growth was much more subdued.

"The number of people in work remained at a near-record high, while the unemployment rate was at its lowest since the mid-1970s."

The ONS figures showed the number of people in work was little changed at 32.39 million, down by just 5,000.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599

This shows, depending on your leanings, either the strength of the UK economy, or it's only due to the fact that Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Joan_number_1_2

undetterred wrote: »

Benefits? Un-controlled immigration.....

Access to our markets (worth £60 billion per year extra) ...
Use of the London clearing houses ...........

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

...
If people don't like the EU, campaign to change it. If immigration is an issue....use the powers we already have to control it! Blair chose to open the borders to East Europe immigration because he believed it would boost the economy and drastically underestimated the numbers that would come.
...

Nothing has come close to the Brexit vote for waking up the politicians to the widespread dislike for the EU migration policy.

Nothing.

That sounds like an effective campaign to me.

Sometimes, negative action brings the quickest response. Nobody had heard or cared about Toxteth until the riots. Then, all of a sudden, it was worthy of government assistance.

Maybe modern politicians are reactionary beings.

Herzlos

We can sit up and take notice, politically, without having to leave the EU though.

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

Access to our markets (worth £60 billion per year extra) ...
Use of the London clearing houses ...........

Both the UK and the EU benefitted greatly from the UK being part of the EU. No-one is denying that. I'm not sure I follow your point though?