Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Enterprise_1701C

Moby wrote: »

It would help if you stopped seeing the EU as a 'country'. The clue is in the name...it's a community of countries developing towards a federation. Its based on the idea that narrow national identity hasn't worked in Europe. Two huge wars, Napoleon, Franco-Prussian, Spain etc made that clear! Europhobes are so fond of describing the EU as a tyranny taking away their 'national' identity....but that's patent nonsense... most people have more than one affinity. I'm Welsh, British and European and see no contradiction in that. Irish people are very proud Celts but also love being European....I'd say the same for a lot of Scots as well.


You don't seem to understand that if you are Welsh, Scottish or Irish, the biggest threat to your 'national' identity historically was not the EU... it was English nationalism energised by an English monarchy set on expanding it's territories. of course we have now hopefully moved on to subsidiarity as a means of curtailing nationalist excess. We call it the United Kingdom.

The idea of subsidiarity is written into the Maastricht Treaty; local decisions which affect limited numbers of people should be left to them! That's true sovereignty.


If people don't like the EU, campaign to change it. If immigration is an issue....use the powers we already have to control it! Blair chose to open the borders to East Europe immigration because he believed it would boost the economy and drastically underestimated the numbers that would come.


By leaving the EU altogether we are in effect damaging our future prosperity and status and ensuring that we will not be at the forefront of international political developments and solutions. Why do you think Putin loves Brexit....he knows it weakens us!

If the eu does not see itself as a country then why does it need a flag, why does it need a parliament (based expensively in two countries to appease the french), why does it want an army.?

They say they want ever closer union, that can only end one way (assuming it doesn't self combust first).

buglawton

Herzlos wrote: »

We have controls over migration, we just don't use them.

How would these controls affect migrants accepted for minimum wage iobs that advertise asking for an E European language, or are even advertised in one, or where the agent has already placed these low cost workers, all they need to do is step off a Ryanair?

Joan_number_1_2

Herzlos wrote: »

.... Both the UK and the EU benefitted greatly from the UK being part of the EU. No-one is denying that. I'm not sure I follow your point though?

:rotfl:
Here endeth the thread.

Joan_number_1_2

fatbeetle wrote: »

This shows, depending on your leanings, either the strength of the UK economy, or it's only due to the fact that Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Now now.
You know that only negative news can be attributed to Brexit.

Herzlos

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

:rotfl:
Here endeth the thread.

Why? Because you think you've won a point by stating the bleedin obvious? That this information somehow materially changes brexit?

Herzlos

buglawton wrote: »

How would these controls affect migrants accepted for minimum wage iobs that advertise asking for an E European language, or are even advertised in one, or where the agent has already placed these low cost workers, all they need to do is step off a Ryanair?

If they can support themselves then they couldn't be removed under the current powers. Maybe we could have pushed for additional controls but that be moving against the point of the freedoms.
I'm sure the EU was talking about some mechanism for balancing minimum wages to avoid that.

Crashy_Time

Moby wrote: »

It would help if you stopped seeing the EU as a 'country'. The clue is in the name...it's a community of countries developing towards a federation. Its based on the idea that narrow national identity hasn't worked in Europe. Two huge wars, Napoleon, Franco-Prussian, Spain etc made that clear! Europhobes are so fond of describing the EU as a tyranny taking away their 'national' identity....but that's patent nonsense... most people have more than one affinity. I'm Welsh, British and European and see no contradiction in that. Irish people are very proud Celts but also love being European....I'd say the same for a lot of Scots as well.


You don't seem to understand that if you are Welsh, Scottish or Irish, the biggest threat to your 'national' identity historically was not the EU... it was English nationalism energised by an English monarchy set on expanding it's territories. of course we have now hopefully moved on to subsidiarity as a means of curtailing nationalist excess. We call it the United Kingdom.

The idea of subsidiarity is written into the Maastricht Treaty; local decisions which affect limited numbers of people should be left to them! That's true sovereignty.


If people don't like the EU, campaign to change it. If immigration is an issue....use the powers we already have to control it! Blair chose to open the borders to East Europe immigration because he believed it would boost the economy and drastically underestimated the numbers that would come.


By leaving the EU altogether we are in effect damaging our future prosperity and status and ensuring that we will not be at the forefront of international political developments and solutions. Why do you think Putin loves Brexit....he knows it weakens us!

So forcing people to change their "national identity" by herding in millions of other "national identities" worked then? The issues in Germany and Italy tell us that the Great Experiment is not long for this world IMO.

Joan_number_1_2

Crashy_Time wrote: »

So forcing people to change their "national identity" by herding in millions of other "national identities" worked then? The issues in Germany and Italy tell us that the Great Experiment is not long for this world IMO.

You missed Poland, Hungary, France, Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands ..... hold on!
There's not much of the EU it hasn't affected and the resulting problems are still ongoing.
Borders and arguments about borders; countries refusing refugee-laden ships to dock; countries refusing to accept quotas of those that have arrived; the EU paying Turkey billions to stop migrants and more.
Years the EU have had and they still have no effective solution.

Backbiter

Hard-hitting stuff from the former Tory PM John Major:

have no constituency vote clouding my view of Brexit. I have no ambition driving my support for it. I have no party whips demanding loyalty before conscience. I have made no false promises about Brexit that I must pretend can still be honoured, even though – in my heart – I know they cannot. I am free to say absolutely and precisely what I believe about Brexit. And it is this:

I understand the motives of those who voted to leave the European Union: it can – as I well know – be very frustrating. Nonetheless, after weighing its frustrations and opportunities, there is no doubt in my own mind that our decision is a colossal misjudgment that will diminish both the UK and the EU. It will damage our national and personal wealth, and may seriously hamper our future security. It may even, over time, break up our United Kingdom. It will most definitely limit the prospects of our young.

And – once this becomes clear – I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/false-promises-brexit-john-major

Joan_number_1_2

Backbiter wrote: »

Hard-hitting stuff from the former Tory PM John Major:

"Hard-hitting"?
:rotfl:
He was a nonentity as a PM and if you seriously think that anyone - well, anyone who isn't just hunting for more anti-Brexit carp - is going to pay any attention to what he says that would be a first.
In fact IMHO it's the only reason he's said this.