Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

We don't have to do anything.

I'm not sure, since we caused a lot of it (historically, the British Empire was horrible), we have some moral duty to try and help. At the very least we can stop selling arms to conflict regions.



I'm also not sure that the German publics outrage at the open refugee invitation is entirely founded in reality; it was a big absolute number but a small percentage, and most of the reports of migrant crime waves have turned out to be false. So I wonder if it's not a case of right wing populism causing hysteria in the same way we have in the UK.


I'm sure it could have been handled better, but I'm glad at least someone in power in the West felt human enough to help out refugees from a war we're not entirely innocent in. It's almost shameful how the UK ignored the issue beyond complaining about a wave of migrants. How many refugees did we actually take in? Did we even get to 4 digits? I know of some that have integrated pretty well and run businesses that the locals would never have bothered with.

cogito wrote: »

You last your argument when you said that we could sell unlimited services in the EU. Those pillars of the EU, France and Germany have ensured that we couldn't.

What services have France and Germany stopped us selling in the EU?

Moby

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

But these people don't know that, no matter how you want to describe them.
Many German people certainly don't respect her for it, hence the rise of the AfD and Merkel's allies the CSU losing their majority in Bavaria for the first time since WWII.
says CNN (and others) - and they're right.
In fact it is as a result of Merkels actions that there has been such a rise in populism across the EU.
So in effect you're showing your misplaced respect to Merkel for that.

I agree the outcome for Merkel wasn't good politically but what she did was morally right and that's why I respect her. I infinitely prefer her to a politician whose every move is predicated on political expediency.....Johnson for example!

Joan_number_1_2

andrewf75 wrote: »

I would say it’s a bit of both the two previous posts (Moby/ukcarper)
She certainly meant well, but I think it was naiive in todays connected world to issue such an open invitation. I agree Cameron’s approach was right (feels a bit weird saying that!) and its such a shame that we weren’t more engaged in the EU – if we were we could have pushed for EU wide action along those lines.

The UK never had any power in the EU, the French & Germans made sure of that.

Moby

cogito wrote: »

For more perspective, here are some recent articles.

https://www.eurasiareview.com/05102018-eus-withdrawal-creating-domino-effect-across-balkans-analysis/

https://emerging-europe.com/voices/the-eus-re-engagement-with-the-western-balkans-losing-momentum-again/

https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2018/10/16/twelve-proposals-western-balkans-enlargement/

As one of the articles says, the EU never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

I could mostly agree with the last article except that the countries involved want the EU to do twelve different things whilst they are silent on what they themselves need to do.

Those articles are about the detail of accession and are complaints about the fact that it is not happening or the EU is backsliding on commitments and as the first one says:-


'Hope of a future life within EU borders was the only thing that silenced the nationalist and separatist tendencies in the Balkans that erupted when the former Yugoslavia collapsed in the 1990s.'


My view is the EU is the only way we have of dealing with these issues; the fact that it is currently failing is not a reason for us to leave thereby weakening it further as an institution. We need to strengthen it and acknowledge what it has already achieved.
The reason it is not working as it should is because of nationalist tendancies in member states!

Herzlos

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

The UK never had any power in the EU, the French & Germans made sure of that.

Do you have any examples of that happening?

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

We don't have to do anything.

Only Africa as a continent can solve the problems it faces.

The population will almost double to 2 BILLION in a generation or two.

That could quite easily mean 150 MILLION people who seek to move into Europe.

The idea that this could happen without major conflict is laughable.

Over this same timeframe, by the way, tens of millions of jobs will disappear across Europe due to technology.

Are you seeing a trend yet? Is it for more potential unrest or less?

I don't want to be tied into an EU which has lost control over migration.

You describe the problem and then turn away from the obvious vehicle for the solution. It has to be managed through international co-operation. Doing nothing is not an answer. It's a cop out!

andrewf75

Joan_number_1 wrote: »

The UK never had any power in the EU, the French & Germans made sure of that.

I can’t believe anyone seriously believes that. We (were) right up there with France and Germany in weight of influence, but were always more concerned with placating euroscepticism back home by negotiating opt-outs than actually leading on issues. Contrary to the populist image, we are admired across the EU and had Cameron pulled Merkel aside and persuaded her to set up EU wide funding of camps instead of opening the borders, she would have listened and other countries would have backed it as well.

andrewf75

Moby wrote: »

You describe the problem and then turn away from the obvious vehicle for the solution. It has to be managed through international co-operation. Doing nothing is not an answer. It's a cop out!

Sums it all up. The very people so vocal about the problems of immigration from Africa and elsewhere are the ones who think we have no role to play in solving the underlying problems! And solving the underlying problems can be far more easily achieved by working together. A strong Europe has a chance of controlling it, a fractured Europe with individual countries working in their own interests doesn’t.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm not sure, since we caused a lot of it (historically, the British Empire was horrible), we have some moral duty to try and help. At the very least we can stop selling arms to conflict regions.
...

That's just so much hogwash. If you're going to pay for the sins of history, then you should include ALL of history.

I reckon the Egyptians owe the descendants of their African slaves a fortune.

Not to mention inter tribal rivalry and slavery in Africa.

Nobody demands free Toyotas off Japan to repay their misplaced imperialism in the early 1900s.

Ghenkis Khan; Alexander the Great; Napoleon...hmm, where do you want to stop?

I care what happens now and in the future, not the past.

Tromking

andrewf75 wrote: »

I can’t believe anyone seriously believes that. We (were) right up there with France and Germany in weight of influence, but were always more concerned with placating euroscepticism back home by negotiating opt-outs than actually leading on issues. Contrary to the populist image, we are admired across the EU and had Cameron pulled Merkel aside and persuaded her to set up EU wide funding of camps instead of opening the borders, she would have listened and other countries would have backed it as well.

That’s a bit of historical revisionism you’re guilty of there. France and Germany jealousy guard their joint preeminence in all things EU, and when push came to shove the U.K. was always a junior partner and shut out. Even when arch-europhile Blair was our PM, he was left under no illusion during EU get togethers that it was a Franco-German party he was trying to gatecrash. With that dynamic at play for 40 years, Brexit was inevitable.