Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

I suspect it's just something I'll never get, because whilst I'm good with logic, I'm pretty awful at emotion. Logical arguments I can follow, emotive ones are always a bit lost on me.

cogito wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has always welcomed immigrants into the UK, I am bemused that I voted leave only to be described as either a racist or a xenophobe. People who insist that leave voters only voted that way because they are racist just don't get it.

Noone is saying people only voted leave because they were racist, nor that it's why you voted leave (which you claim you didn't?). Some did, and it seems to be the most honest reason to have voted leave. That still doesn't disprove the fact that in as far as identified, "immigration" was the most common theme.



So almost all racists voted leave, but not all leave voters are racist.


So why did you, personally, vote to leave that wasn't racist? I wonder what other bucket it'll fit into, or maybe I'll even become enlightened.

Herzlos

fatbeetle wrote: »

Ah well, I tried to show you the errors of your ways. But the patronising of the ordinary bloke and woman by the left is great for people who think otherwise, and do not respect you or your insults. You carry on thinking that you can belittles us into changing, and that you know our minds better than we do, and your elitist arrogance will surely stop you achieving what you desire.

Like I said I just can't fathom it, but I've got no intention of belittling you into changing your mind. I've tried to present the facts and try to address the root issues, but I'm not expecting any change of mind on either side, because it's too polarizing.
I'm just trying to figure out why someone would want to leave and how that can be satisfied by leaving. It's pretty hard to when any questioning in shot down as traitorism, lack of patriotism or elitist snobbery. No-one actually seems to want to talk about why they voted to leave. I suspect in a few years no will admit to have voted leave either so we'll never actually get to the bottom of it.

If you haven't figured out yet that the reason you will not get a left leaning government, (and JC is STILL behind May in the polls despite him being given more open goals that anyone opposition leader in history,) is precisely due to the nasty, means minded, unthinking snobbery of those who believe they know us better than we know ourselves. Well that's just your own self made cross to bear.

That sounds a lot like you're describing a right wing government.

Master Sun Tzu talks often about deception and therefore warns against being deceived by the enemy and underestimating their ability. ‘He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.’

He's also relying on an enemy being led by a good general with some idea of what's happening and the protocols of warfare. It's hard to judge conditions to take on an enemy that's seemingly behaving at random. Of course, that disorganization could all be a deception it itself.

Enterprise_1701C

Gina Miller has got her own agenda, nothing to do with sovereignty, she simply wants to stop brexit.

The reason why I would now vote leave, having previously voted Remain, is that I simply do not want to be part of a club that treats people that want to leave the way they have, the way they reacted to the leave vote was beyond childish, and I suspect if we now Remain they will gradually erode the opt-outs that we negiotated, we would end up paying more in because of the non contributor countries they are trying to get to join, and we would almost certainly be told to join the euro or leave.

Look at the way they are treating Switzerland, and the way Merkel opened the door but then decided to try to force everyone else to open theirs.

It is a question of attitude, they want to do things their way and will not listen to any other ideas.

Things like the massive extra spending involved in holding the parliament in two different places do not help, especially as it was done just to appease the french.

No, the eu are too big for their own boots, and they get upset if someone questions what they do, they are acting like a toddler that can't have a new toy. The difference is they should know better.

Lungboy

fatbeetle wrote: »

But the patronising of the ordinary bloke and woman by the left is great for people who think otherwise, and do not respect you or your insults.

You've just done the same thing you're accusing others of by labelling Remain = Left. There was a huge section of the political left who voted Leave because the EU is very from from a social democratic entity.

fatbeetle

Herzlos wrote: »

Like I said I just can't fathom it, but I've got no intention of belittling you into changing your mind. I've tried to present the facts and try to address the root issues, but I'm not expecting any change of mind on either side, because it's too polarizing.

Calling leave voters "racist" because it fits with your viewpoint, is belittling. If it's not meant to change views, then it can only be a childish slur.

Herzlos wrote: »

I'm just trying to figure out why someone would want to leave and how that can be satisfied by leaving. It's pretty hard to when any questioning in shot down as traitorism, lack of patriotism or elitist snobbery. No-one actually seems to want to talk about why they voted to leave. I suspect in a few years no will admit to have voted leave either so we'll never actually get to the bottom of it.

There you go again, all crystal ball speculation, and "I know better than you do what you think and do." No wonder you lost.If someone calls you those names, then you have the right to call them on it. As I did with the poster who childishly claimed we all voted leave due to "racism"

Herzlos wrote: »

He's also relying on an enemy being led by a good general with some idea of what's happening and the protocols of warfare. It's hard to judge conditions to take on an enemy that's seemingly behaving at random. Of course, that disorganization could all be a deception it itself.

No, again, you seek to impose your "I know better than you do" snobbery on the situation. Underestimating ANY enemy is fatal to ANY campaign, was the whole point. It's laughable that by trying to twist a simple statement you make such a hash of it.

Lungboy

fatbeetle wrote: »

Calling leave voters "racist" because it fits with your viewpoint, is belittling.

And labelling all Remainers as left wing is the same.

Herzlos

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

Gina Miller has got her own agenda, nothing to do with sovereignty, she simply wants to stop brexit.

What her intentions are here are irrelevant. She got the judges to uphold parliamentary sovereignty. Sure she wanted to undo Brexit but she did you an enormous favour.


Do you at least agree that her actions were good for parliamentary sovereignty, even if you want to continue to brand her as a traitor?

The reason why I would now vote leave, having previously voted Remain, is that I simply do not want to be part of a club that treats people that want to leave the way they have

1. Do you honestly believe the UK would behave differently?
2. I genuinely don't see what the EU has done wrong here - the UK wanted outsider status and is being treated exactly as. There's been some petty digs from politicians but everything else is as you'd expect if you remove the emotion and entitlement complex we as Brits have.

Herzlos

fatbeetle wrote: »

Calling leave voters "racist" because it fits with your viewpoint, is belittling. If it's not meant to change views, then it can only be a childish slur.


There you go again, all crystal ball speculation, and "I know better than you do what you think and do." No wonder you lost.If someone calls you those names, then you have the right to call them on it. As I did with the poster who childishly claimed we all voted leave due to "racism"


No, again, you seek to impose your "I know better than you do" snobbery on the situation. Underestimating ANY enemy is fatal to ANY campaign, was the whole point. It's laughable that by trying to twist a simple statement you make such a hash of it.

Leave voters being racist doesn't fit my viewpoint. Most aren't by any real definition of the word. But that doesn't explain why they did vote to leave. I will assert though, that all of the racists I know were very open in voting leave. It's at least an honest stance even if I disagree with it.


I certainly don't know better than Leave voters why Leave voters voted Leave. That's what I'm trying to figure out by asking questions instead of just accepting it at face value when said face value is completely contradictory.


Saying that one of the only reasons to leave that stands up to scrutiny is racism, doesn't mean I think that Leavers are racist. Some are, but some are also left handed and afraid of camels.

Filo25

Herzlos wrote: »

As one of the British electorate he has exactly as much say as you. However if he gets the ability to vote in the EU he also has the ability to sway the government's that would have to agree to let us back in.

I doubt most of Europe will want us back anyway.

If we ever choose to go back after actually going through with the Leaving process, I don't think there is much serious doubt that the "deal" on offer from the EU wouldn't be remotely as attractive as the current one we are on with our opt-outs, rebate, etc.

gfplux

Tromking wrote: »

Again, it’s nowt to do with you.
The U.K. electorate decides and can change their minds when ever they see fit.
This ‘I don’t want those irksome Brits sullying my wonderful European project again’ narrative you’re propagating is childish and has more than a hint of Remoaner self loathing about it.
Unfortunately for you, the big players on mainland Europe would sell their Granny’s to welcome the U.K. back to the fold, Macron said as much just this week.
IMO, the most likely scenario now is a constitutional crisis in the autumn followed by a vote to remain shortly after. You could be stuck with us.

Of course Brexit is something to do with me.
Don’t be so silly,
It has everything to do with every British Citizen and all the millions of citizens who are staying in the EU after Britain leaves.

What actually is remoaner self loathing. Is it the same as quitlings self loathing.

Please don’t think that politicians just because they are foreign speak the truth. They are just the same as British politicians. Just like you should not believe what you read on the side of a bus.

Hopefully there will be a withdrawal/transition deal done together with an a4 sheet detailing the future relationship.