Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Moby

wunferall wrote: »

You're not a poker player, I see.

Never ever let the other players get even the slightest hint of what is really in your hand.



It's also strange to see that you hold TM in such high esteem that you presume the plans to be "hers" and not those of a variety of advisers, supposedly for and on behalf of the nation.

I am genuinely bewildered by what is going on at present...are you saying she doesn't believe in chequers herself?

Enterprise_1701C

Herzlos wrote: »

I'd be all for that. Will make it a lot easier for an independent Scotland to get to the EU without having to go through England and it's custom points.

If Scotland ever become independant then that would be fine, but they would have to pay for it, and they would probably have to get approval from the eu, especially as there is no way they would be allowed to join for at least 20 years, probably more like 50 before they got their house in order.

Herzlos

I'm not sure the poker analogy works here; our hand isn't and can't be hidden. The EU knows at least as well as us what will hurt us and how. There's nothing to hide from them, and hiding stuff just makes stuff take longer.

Unless of course you think the EU will fold if we play hardball long enough. But that's like betting your house with a pair of 2's.

I personally don't believe she thinks chequers will work. I think she'll fold completely at the last minute and blame the EU for intransigence. She just needs to look like she's trying to leave for her friends to make money from the markets and to deflect blame from herself. She tried her hardest, after will, and the EU wasn't interested in negotiating so she had to back down for the countries sake. She's deeply sorry for letting everyone down, so will resign with a golden parachute to spend all the money her husband made off it too cynical?

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

If Scotland ever become independant then that would be fine, but they would have to pay for it, and they would probably have to get approval from the eu, especially as there is no way they would be allowed to join for at least 20 years, probably more like 50 before they got their house in order.

I thought one of the reasons you wanted out is because the EU always fudges these things to let in countries that don't meet the criteria?

You guys pay your liabilities and leave us to worry about ours

fatbeetle

Arklight wrote: »

Racism, mostly.

Thank you. There we have another clear example of why the remain side lost. They have nothing to offer but childish playground insults, and do not seem to understand that while they rely on these, then the Brexiters will carry on winning the day, and preparing to leave.

Do you not understand that when you tar decent reasonable hard working people, as "Gammon" or "Little Englanders" or "Daily Mail Readers" or "racists" or whatever the infantile remainer insult of the week is, the resolve to leave gets stronger, and more people are drawn into the Brexit group.

Why not grow up a bit?

vivatifosi

Interesting article from The Conversation outlining the differences between Chequers and Canada Plus:


https://theconversation.com/chequers-vs-canada-plus-brexit-trade-plans-seven-key-differences-explained-103969

Herzlos

Alas it's not really name calling here, it's just being realistic. We know roughly why people voted to leave, based on the campaigns, but the only ones that hold up much scrutiny from the vocal leavers is racism. Or gross hypocricy since they are willing to violate the things they claim Brexit was about, in order to get any Brexit. The only common denominator is xenophobia. Everything else is either back peddled on or not the fault of the EU.


Leavers mostly voted for a valid reason (in their view), but a lot of that was skewed by decades of propaganda our some outrageous lies from the Leave campaign. People are very unhappy with the country and governance at the moment, but unfortunately leaving the EU is likely to only make that worse for the majority of people. I don't blame them for voting for change, I'd do the same. I blame the Leave campaigns and the right wing media for all the lying.


We (as a country) really need to get to the bottom of why people voted leave and address the underlying issues (probably poor local funding or job availability) instead of taking the populist approach.


In engineering (as with presumably anything else), it's always important to find out what people are trying to do and what problem they are trying to solve, instead of just providing the thing they ask for. For instance, someone comes and asks for a car with 72" wheels and 48" of ground clearance. You could build a car like that and they'd be "happy" but they'd have all sorts of horrible compromises. Or you could discover that the reason they need that ground clearance is because they need to cross a river to get out of their garden and you'd be much better just building them a small bridge. That's what we're missing here - why do people want Brexit and what are they expecting it to fix?


I'd be willing to bet we could fix almost all of those issues by getting rid of the Tories and staying in the EU.

cogito

Speaking as someone who has always welcomed immigrants into the UK, I am bemused that I voted leave only to be described as either a racist or a xenophobe. People who insist that leave voters only voted that way because they are racist just don't get it.

Joan_number_1_2

cogito wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has always welcomed immigrants into the UK, I am bemused that I voted leave only to be described as either a racist or a xenophobe. People who insist that leave voters only voted that way because they are racist just don't get it.

May I correct that for you? Because from my observances I think this would be more correct.
"Speaking as someone who has always welcomed immigrants into the UK, I am bemused that I voted leave only to be described as either a racist or a xenophobe. People who insist that leave voters only voted that way because they are racist just don't want to get it."
They're just too busy stuck in the "denial" stage it seems.

fatbeetle

Herzlos wrote: »

Alas it's not really name calling here, it's just being realistic. We know roughly why people voted to leave, based on the campaigns, but the only ones that hold up much scrutiny from the vocal leavers is racism.

Ah well, I tried to show you the errors of your ways. But the patronising of the ordinary bloke and woman by the left is great for people who think otherwise, and do not respect you or your insults. You carry on thinking that you can belittles us into changing, and that you know our minds better than we do, and your elitist arrogance will surely stop you achieving what you desire.

If you haven't figured out yet that the reason you will not get a left leaning government, (and JC is STILL behind May in the polls despite him being given more open goals that anyone opposition leader in history,) is precisely due to the nasty, means minded, unthinking snobbery of those who believe they know us better than we know ourselves. Well that's just your own self made cross to bear.

Master Sun Tzu talks often about deception and therefore warns against being deceived by the enemy and underestimating their ability. ‘He who exercises no forethought but makes light of his opponents is sure to be captured by them.’

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has always welcomed immigrants into the UK, I am bemused that I voted leave only to be described as either a racist or a xenophobe. People who insist that leave voters only voted that way because they are racist just don't get it.

I've been trying to find out why for 2 years now, but the only responses that have held any real water (and I'll admit that different people have different views which muddies it) is xenophobia (and I'm perfectly fine with that being an answer, it's honest and part of human nature) and fear about what the EU will become (again, perfectly valid), that it was a protest vote and they didn't think it'd happen (also valid).
Most of the other reasons fall away pretty quickly, though it's hard to see at face value here because most of the Brexiteers on here have wildly changed tack whenever something is discredited and then deny it, and there's been so much noise and denial it's not worth going back to resurrect.


It's not about borders; because no-one is up in arms at there being no border in Eire.

It's not about sovereignty because if it was Gina Miller and the judges would be heroes and not traitors.
Pretty much everything else has come up as being based on false information.


Again, I'm not saying people had valid reasons to vote to Leave, I'm just very skeptical that Leaving will address them because we've had decades of blaming everything on the EU.


There is definitely an element of being elitist or out of touch (though I seem to be more in tune with the common people than a couple of "wealthy" Brexiteers on here, being one of them. I just don't believe any of the Leave campaign lies. It's perfectly understandable that people did since it was all very emotional and manipulative, and I don't hold view people who fell for the lies as inferior as it was very easy to become misinformed. I just don't believe the people voting to Leave will be best served by leaving.