Brexit the economy and house prices part 6

Herzlos

cogito wrote: »

I see no reason why the term 'gammon' should apply exclusively to those on the riight. There are one or two left wing frothers on here who get insanely angry about any expressed views that don,t conform to their blinkered and naive view of the world.

The rise of the right is something that should be concerning the EU. There are already clear signs that right wing parties from Hungary, Poland, Italy and other countries of the EU are coalescing into a group which is likely to make huge gains in the next EU Parl elections. The left are making a huge mistake if they think that won't happen although the likes of Verhofstadt are already alarmed by the prospect.

Gammon is more than just being angry. Most people on here are pretty coherent and rational even when angry. Gammon refers to a certain kind of apoplexy that only seems to exist in comments section of the Daily Mail. I wouldn't even think any of the Leave posters on here would be showing Gammon tendencies. Clapton, maybe.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

They may be less overtly racist than the US and European far right but in any political spectrum there must be both extremes, no?

Would you not say that Moggs and his Euro-Skeptic rebels sit on the right of the party? Or are you claiming they are left/centrists?

I would say that there isn’t one MP at Westminster who is racist, overtly or covertly. Of course Moggs sits on the right of his party, he cannot however be described as far right, far right to me describes the 93 AfD reps in the Bundestag or Marine Le Pen in France.

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

I would say that there isn’t one MP at Westminster who is racist, overtly or covertly. Of course Moggs sits on the right of his party, he cannot however be described as far right, far right to me describes the 93 AfD reps in the Bundestag or Marine Le Pen in France.

Then you're being deliberately ignorant to it. From the first page of a search on "Tory racism":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/conservatives-islamophobia-labour-antisemitism-racism-party-mps-corbyn-may-a8377856.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/27-times-tory-party-racism-7904018


Or Boris Johnson, who has a section in the Wikipedia page all to himself, who's made a racist/offensive remark about pretty much every country he's interacted with.


That there are those outside the UK further to the right than Mogg doesn't somehow make Mogg a leftie, or mean he's not in the far right of the party (which is what I stated).

Moby

Herzlos wrote: »

Gannon is more than just being angry. Most people on here are pretty coherent and rational even when angry. Gammon refers to a certain kind of apoplexy that only seems to exist in comments section of the Daily Mail. I wouldn't even think any of the Leave posters on here would be showing Gammon tendencies. Clapton, maybe.

'Gammon' in the current sense was first used by Momentum as a way of describing a group of people that they encountered during the election campaign. The first use I came across was in reference to groups of working class white men challenging Corbyn re. his attitude towards the nuclear deterrent on the BBC Question Time election debate Its a a stereotype in the same way that 'Essex girl', 'Worcester woman' etc.

Moby

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

That was what all the railways and the roads were meant to do.

The pull factor is more than transport, London has grown up as the centre of everything, if you were going to do that you would need airport improvements too.

Even if you only have better railways built, they are bound to need to go somewhere someone doesn't want them, there would be 20+ years of arguments etc over where they were going.

Once the unions have stopped standing in the way of progress then the railways will improve and provide the service we all need, but in the meantime we have to put up with unions wanting to go back to the 50s, where we had coalmen etc on the trains. Progress needs to be allowed, if we can get fully automated trains then we can get to the standard we need, and it wouldn't take much to have the drive carriage with one door where a ramp extends automatically for those that need one.

Of course, this won't happen, the strike is politically motivated (just google it, there's plenty of videos of Sean Hoyle saying he wants to bring down the government. Unions have become so divorced from their grass roots intention that it is ridiculous. I have been told that my grandfather was the Chairman of the National Union of Railway Signalmen before it merged, he would have been disgusted at the way unions these days were acting, and he would certainly never have defended a driver caught drunk at the wheel (different I know but still unions https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11403238/Tube-drivers-go-on-strike-in-defence-of-colleague-caught-drunk-at-the-wheel-twice.html) although he would have looked after him after he was sacked.

So no, it wouldn't work at the moment. The unions have shot themselves in the foot, I am surprised strikes on the essential services such as the railways, schools etc have not yet been outlawed, if they continue to use them as a cosh then they probably will be. They have caused people to lose their jobs, they have caused people to have to change their jobs, they have caused a lot of problems for people trying to use the surface. Personally I would enable people to sue unions for the losses they suffer.

What your post fails to consider is that Thatcher took a decision in the 1980's to starve the railways of investment. She didn't like the railways and saw road haulage as the way forward. That is why we have huge numbers of trucks on our motorways. Unions are there to defend the working conditions of their members and the railway unions have been doing a good job. Privatisation of the railways and the fragmentation of the service, timetable and fares is where the finger of blame should be pointing.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Tromking wrote: »

I would say that there isn’t one MP at Westminster who is racist, overtly or covertly. .

Well that's a highly selective definition....

UK politics is infested with Far Right elements.... Farage is on the far right, works with Steve Bannon to try and whip up dissent across the EU, supported AfD and indeed Le Pen in the recent EU elections.

We do of course have a shedload of far right MEP's thanks to UKIP.

And the UKIP supporters currently infiltrating the Tories are every bit as far right as the majoritry of voters for AfD, SD, FN, etc, across the EU.

It's frankly risible to suggest that the EU has a bigger problem with the Far Right than we do....

Particularly given that a quarter of Brits (and a third of leave voters) admit to being racists.

cogito

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Well that's a highly selective definition....

UK politics is infested with Far Right elements.... Farage is on the far right, works with Steve Bannon to try and whip up dissent across the EU, supported AfD and indeed Le Pen in the recent EU elections.

We do of course have a shedload of far right MEP's thanks to UKIP.

And the UKIP supporters currently infiltrating the Tories are every bit as far right as the majoritry of voters for AfD, SD, FN, etc, across the EU.

It's frankly risible to suggest that the EU has a bigger problem with the Far Right than we do.... .[/URL]

It's frankly risible to suggest that they don't and you can blame it all on proportional representation.

kabayiri

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

..
UK politics is infested with Far Right elements.... Farage is on the far right, works with Steve Bannon to try and whip up dissent across the EU, supported AfD and indeed Le Pen in the recent EU elections.
...

So what?

The UK voter is free to choose. It's not like there isn't an alternative choice should your views differ.

If the middle ground/left are worried about the right stealing votes, then perhaps they should start working on policy which appeals to the voters they are losing.

Corbyn pretends that migration is simply not an issue. He's obviously willing to lose those votes.

Herzlos

It isn't really an issue, but he should be doing more to satisfy voters of that and attempt to address the actual problems and not just the scapegoats.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

Then you're being deliberately ignorant to it. From the first page of a search on "Tory racism":


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/conservatives-islamophobia-labour-antisemitism-racism-party-mps-corbyn-may-a8377856.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/27-times-tory-party-racism-7904018


Or Boris Johnson, who has a section in the Wikipedia page all to himself, who's made a racist/offensive remark about pretty much every country he's interacted with.


That there are those outside the UK further to the right than Mogg doesn't somehow make Mogg a leftie, or mean he's not in the far right of the party (which is what I stated).

I never suggested that Mogg was a leftie, he patently isn’t.
Your original contention was that TM was being held hostage by a handful of far right MP’s, I disagreed with your characterisation of Brexit leaning MP’s as being far right.
You then offered up Rees-Mogg as being from the far right of the Tory party as an example of far right politics in the UK and as a comparator to the mainland European variety, again he patently isn’t.
Just because people disagree with you on Brexit doesn’t make them far right.
You live in a country that doesn’t elect European style far right fascists to our Parliament, stop imagining that we do.