I am about to buy a D E I S E L - Am I drunk?

Stageshoot

Bachelorplace wrote: »

I love the XJ...and the BMW 7 - I go to London I like the long comfy runs.

How would you look at it if you were me?

:beer:

If you love driving into London then its going to be expensive £11.50 a day currently with plans to increase soon

Parking Bays in Westminster cost 50% more for a Diesel compared to a Petrol

If you do it even 1 day a week that gets very expensive.

I do it 3 days a week, 145 miles each way, So just under 300 miles return.

In My Old Volvo V40
30 Litres Diesel at £1.20ish a Litre £36.00
Congestion Charge £11.50
7 Hours Parking at £7.50 Hour £52.50

A Round £100

In My EV Renault Zoe
60Kwh of Electricity (Half at 5pKwh and Half Free) £1.50
Congestion Charge £0
Parking £0

A Nice £1.50

As more cities introduce these barriers ot Fossil and Incentives to EV it could be that crippling the resale market, Although of course the incentives will only last till the momentum swings then they will be watered down and removed.

sevenhills

motorguy wrote: »

Of course hes over-reacting. But its thinking like that that gains momentum and causes scaremongering.
Its not the current taxation on diesels that has people running scared from them - its no clear vision and local councils on what they plan on doing in the future. And what people dont know they make up.

The vision should come from Government, most people drive through various different councils. Its the wish of Government for the people to blame councils for this confusion, when its the Government/country that will be fined millions ££ in court.

Arklight

Markets are driven on sentiment and sentiment has turned against diesel vehicles.

As has already been discussed, many people who have been buying diesels shouldn't have been.

They bought them because they thought they were green, and the polar opposite turns out to be true. So that's the end of the Mumsnet and Guardian reader market overnight.

They bought them bought them because they thought they were economical city runabouts; legislation and scare stories about clogged DPFs has done for that. So that's the end of the urban market.

You need to do a colossal amount of miles to justify the the extra cost of a diesel over the 5 years or so most people own one, or you have to have a need to be towing loads.

So that leaves high milers who don't mind being slapped with pollution charges to enter city centres, older people with touring caravans, and people who like the extra torque of a diesel engine enough to not be put off by all of the above (and I do like driving diesels myself).

That said, they aren't going to ban them outright any time soon, and buying a new or newish car is the worst financial decision anyone could make anyway. People spend less on a kitchen they spend half the day in than they do on a car that the average motorist sits in for 30 minutes a day.

You'll be lucky to see half your money back on a £30k car in pristine condition with 3 years and low miles on the clock. 5 years and you'll do well to get £10k from a private sale.

But no one worries about the residual value of their kitchen so maybe it's best just to get the one you want and enjoy it as long as you're prepared to take the any DPF problems and the pollution charging that is coming on the chin.

Bachelorplace

Some lovely writing here by the way. Some wise words also from the learned.



I think I am not over reacting, the new law and its extension means that all of London's residents out to the North and South Circular would be charged £12.50 to drive to the shops, that is a £4,000 a year bill, or buy an over priced electric car, or upgrade to a petrol that is new enough to pass.



Diesel engines, do more than that. They enable large luxury cars to be able to move and for people to be able to run them. All Land Rovers, All SUVs All Mercedes E - S - BMW 7 Audi A8 A7 A6.


Yes petrol is amazing these days however. Nobody makes a petrol X5 ( currently the highest selling SUV I think ) worth driving.



I wonder if I am however overreacting living in the Cotswolds and hardly ever taking the car into London. I may be forgeting that people in Leeds, don't give a hoot, and this might mean residuals are not of major concern.



However yes, as the media continue to batter the idea of D many will see it as a "perceived" bad buy, regardless of what they personally believe.


Whats more - if they soon ban EU6 engines too and levy charges on them, there could be some serious concern, especially if fleets have renewed to all EU6.


We were already in a car buying down turn - and this is challenging. With any luck - the values of EU6 cars will be changed to allow them to be a "no brainer" deal.


My feelings really are not just for my self but the sheer numbers of people affected in Greater London. Driving through Wembley we must have counted 1 in 10 cars or less to be EU6. And frankly not offering these people a solution or support is shocking.



I think this is as controversial as the Poll Tax and people should demand reform or clarification.



If the manufacturers catch up, they may be able to develop cleaner engines long before the EV revolution.



I would love an EV - I refer to the Renault ZOE. But really they are expensive and driving on the motorway in one, is not that pleasant.



Not to mention the new I PACE - which has already been described as "good but range anxiety is still there"

AdrianC

Arklight wrote: »

They bought them because they thought they were green, and the polar opposite turns out to be true.

Both ends of that are uninformed wild generalisations.

Truth:
Diesels use less fuel and emit less CO2.
Diesels emit more of other pollutants, including particulates.
There have long been technologies to massively reduce the particulates, in production for nearly two decades. But they generally give problems on short-journey urban use.
Modern emissions legislation mean all cars are MASSIVELY cleaner than they were, but all cars need expensive and complicated technology to meet those caps.

They bought them bought them because they thought they were economical city runabouts

No, they bought them because the buyers didn't look further than low VED and higher economy figures - despite those being a very small part of the cost of ownership for the kind of usage pattern that exacerbates DPF limitations.

You need to do a colossal amount of miles to justify the the extra cost of a diesel over the 5 years or so most people own one

The average ownership is much shorter than 5yrs, and the point at which the benefits of diesel outweigh the downsides is much closer to the average annual mileage.

People spend less on a kitchen they spend half the day in than they do on a car that the average motorist sits in for 30 minutes a day.

Few people spend "half the day" in their kitchen. A large percentage of the population do no more than pop in quickly to shove a ready meal in the oven.

But no one worries about the residual value of their kitchen

Because it doesn't have any. They really aren't remotely comparable expenses.

AdrianC

Bachelorplace wrote: »

Nobody makes a petrol X5 ( currently the highest selling SUV I think ) worth driving.

The X5 is not the highest-selling SUV. It's not even BMW's highest-selling SUV.

The Qashqai is the third-best selling car in the UK, with the Ford Kuga in sixth. They're the only two SUVs in the top ten.


The Qashqai, Kuga and X5 ranges all include both petrol and diesel engine choices across the spec range.

Arklight

AdrianC wrote: »

Both ends of that are uninformed wild generalisations.

Truth:
Diesels use less fuel and emit less CO2.
Diesels emit more of other pollutants, including particulates.
There have long been technologies to massively reduce the particulates, in production for nearly two decades. But they generally give problems on short-journey urban use.
Modern emissions legislation mean all cars are MASSIVELY cleaner than they were, but all cars need expensive and complicated technology to meet those caps.


No, they bought them because the buyers didn't look further than low VED and higher economy figures - despite those being a very small part of the cost of ownership for the kind of usage pattern that exacerbates DPF limitations.

The average ownership is much shorter than 5yrs, and the point at which the benefits of diesel outweigh the downsides is much closer to the average annual mileage.


Few people spend "half the day" in their kitchen. A large percentage of the population do no more than pop in quickly to shove a ready meal in the oven.


Because it doesn't have any. They really aren't remotely comparable expenses.

Diesels emit less CO2, which is bad for the environment, and immensely more NOx, which is bad for people who don't want to die prematurely of lung disease.

I'm not sure what wildly uninformed speculation you are referring to, considering the wealth of peer reviewed trials that prove that NOx emissions cause breathing disorders in humans, and diesels produce substantially more NOx than petrols.

In real world conditions even so called clean Euro 6 diesel cars exceed manufacturer stated NOx emissions by a factor of 4 to 7 times.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5630643/

These studies, and there are a number now, used lasers to measure particulate emissions from city traffic, the diesels don't filter out anything like what is claimed in real driving.

Diesel cars will be banned completely in Paris by 2020. London looks like it is close to following suit.

Do you really believe this is happening for no reason?

As far as costs go if you can spend 15% - 22% more on the price of a diesel model over the petrol version, and somehow save that back on fuel doing 10,000 miles a year then good luck to you.

sevenhills

Bachelorplace wrote: »

I wonder if I am however overreacting living in the Cotswolds and hardly ever taking the car into London. I may be forgeting that people in Leeds, don't give a hoot, and this might mean residuals are not of major concern.

Not sure why you mentioned Leeds, but Leeds are consulting on a 'clean air zone'.
Private cars will not be affected, at least that is the position at the moment, which I think is barking.

AdrianC

Arklight wrote: »

Diesels emit less CO2, which is bad for the environment, and immensely more NOx, which is bad for people who don't want to die prematurely of lung disease.

"Immensely" is simply wrong.


Yes, the petrol Euro 6 cap is 0.06g/km, while for diesels it's 0.08g/km. But for petrols, NOx was uncapped until Euro 3, when it started to be capped at 0.15g/km.

In real world conditions even so called clean Euro 6 diesel cars exceed manufacturer stated NOx emissions by a factor of 4 to 7 times.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5630643/

That's a US study, btw. Their emissions regs are very different to the UNECE ones.


Yes, there have been problems with the NEDC emissions testing - which is why the much more stringent WLTP and RDE tests have been in place for a year or two now. The manufacturers having problems meeting those are having to re-engineer petrols, too - GPFs are going to be commonplace very soon.

Diesel cars will be banned completely in Paris by 2020. London looks like it is close to following suit.

Please stick with reality...


Under the current 5yr trial (we're about 1.5yrs in), Euro 5 and 6 diesels fall into Crit'air 2 in Paris with Euro 4 petrols, Euro 5 and 6 petrols into Crit'air 1. Euro 4 diesels are with Euro 2/3 petrols in Crit'air 3. Right now, only Crit'air 5 and no sticker are banned from inside the perepherique (very different to the whole of Paris), with some very small areas being traffic-free completely. The perepherique itself is outside the restrictions, as London's key routes around the congestion zone are. Various other restrictions apply when air quality is particularly poor. Anne Hidalgo (the mayor since 2014) said there's a goal to ban diesels completely, but the initial 2020 date floated quickly slipped to 2030, and then to no specific date.


When the London ULEZ stretches to the circulars in 2021, Euro 6 diesels will still be permitted - the oldest will then be 7yo. Euro 7 is not yet on the cards at all.

Do you really believe this is happening for no reason?

How about you read what I've actually written, eh?

Arklight

AdrianC wrote: »

"Immensely" is simply wrong.


Yes, the petrol Euro 6 cap is 0.06g/km, while for diesels it's 0.08g/km. But for petrols, NOx was uncapped until Euro 3, when it started to be capped at 0.15g/km.



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That's a US study, btw. Their emissions regs are very different to the UNECE ones.


Yes, there have been problems with the NEDC emissions testing - which is why the much more stringent WLTP and RDE tests have been in place for a year or two now. The manufacturers having problems meeting those are having to re-engineer petrols, too - GPFs are going to be commonplace very soon.



Please stick with reality...


Under the current 5yr trial (we're about 1.5yrs in), Euro 5 and 6 diesels fall into Crit'air 2 in Paris with Euro 4 petrols, Euro 5 and 6 petrols into Crit'air 1. Euro 4 diesels are with Euro 2/3 petrols in Crit'air 3. Right now, only Crit'air 5 and no sticker are banned from inside the perepherique (very different to the whole of Paris), with some very small areas being traffic-free completely. The perepherique itself is outside the restrictions, as London's key routes around the congestion zone are. Various other restrictions apply when air quality is particularly poor. Anne Hidalgo (the mayor since 2014) said there's a goal to ban diesels completely, but the initial 2020 date floated quickly slipped to 2030, and then to no specific date.


When the London ULEZ stretches to the circulars in 2021, Euro 6 diesels will still be permitted - the oldest will then be 7yo. Euro 7 is not yet on the cards at all.




How about you read what I've actually written, eh?

I've read it, you're just wrong.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/03/02/diesel-cars-emissions-tests-rde-nox-eu-standards-companies/