Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

I actually agree with you. But do you seriously trust the Tories, under May, Gove and Davis, to be able to pull this off?
...

Maybe not.

But how would I know the team at the time I was asked to make my voting decision?

It's far from perfect, but we have to accept our political system and how it works.

Cameron could have insisted on a clear winning margin for the Brexit referendum, but he didn't.

I've said before how it was all a bit half baked, but thats just IMO.

kingstreet

Enterprise_1701C wrote: »

...we are a GREAT country, we need the training systems back in place rather than just taking in cheaper labour, we need apprenticeships up and running better, and I for one prefer the idea of actually being able to properly understand medical staff and having them properly understand English. If we have properly qualified medical staff from other countries they should, as I hope they are, be tested for their medical knowledge and they should be fluent in English...

I don't disagree with any of that, but could you tell me why none of that is currently happening? All appear to be within the remit of our elected Government.

Our Government has control over non-EU immigration. Is there currently a requirement for fluency in English as a condition of a visa or NHS employment...?

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

Maybe not.

But how would I know the team at the time I was asked to make my voting decision?

It's far from perfect, but we have to accept our political system and how it works.

Cameron could have insisted on a clear winning margin for the Brexit referendum, but he didn't.

I've said before how it was all a bit half baked, but thats just IMO.

I admit no-one could have expected a team as bad as we got, but you did know it'd be done under Cameron's Tories and they were hardly a beacon of competence.

Pauciloquent_1_2

kingstreet wrote: »

I don't disagree with any of that, but could you tell me why none of that is currently happening? All appear to be within the remit of our elected Government. 1

Our Government has control over non-EU immigration. Is there currently a requirement for fluency in English as a condition of a visa or NHS employment...? 2

1 It is slowly improving now but employers have had little incentive to implement apprenticeships when it has been cheaper and easier to employee plentiful EU workers.
2 Even a quick web search would show you that yes, there are indeed quite strict language requirements for NHS workers.

Nurses & doctors are a great example of what happens when it's easier & cheaper to hire from outside than from the UK.
In the past year medical training places have increased and will reach 1500 more places per annum from 2019, and nurses have seen a 25% increase in training places plus another 5000 Nursing Associates and these numbers will increase again next year.
In addition I see that (presumably to cover the interim period) a "learn, earn and return" system for nurses hoping to recruit tens of thousands ethically rather than permanently depriving other nations has been approved for India, the Philippines and Jamaica.

Not perfect maybe but a good start, I think you will agree.

Tromking

ilovehouses wrote: »

Currently, there are a record number of unfilled vacancies in the NHS. Why aren't these vacancies being filled by the cheap and plentiful EU workers of which you speak?

It's heartening to read your thoughts on the ethics of importing nursing staff. What a happy coincidence that the countries whose welfare you're most concerned about are those whose workers you least want to see in the UK.

The OP, Enterprise, like many, is confused - his concerns have nothing to do with brexit.

There is no confusion.
Many leave voters voted precisely to force a situation that is already happening. Inward EU migration is slowing and as a result the U.K. is having to think of other ways to replace those workers. In the case of the NHS there is a recognition that homegrown training places have to rise exponentially. We are also seeing a rise in productivity as companies seek to invest in their workers and businesses instead of relying on cheap EU Labour. The upshot of that is a clear contribution to the rise in wages
You might have to contemplate sometime in the future an admission that you called this wrong.

Thrugelmir

Pauciloquent_1 wrote: »

Nurses & doctors are a great example of what happens when it's easier & cheaper to hire from outside than from the UK.

More to do with an ageing population. 8% of the workforce now works in healthcare in one capacity or another. Likewise post war baby boomers are retiring on their gold plated pensions. Recruitment from Eire has been going on for decades.

Pauciloquent_1_2

Tromking wrote: »

There is no confusion.
Many leave voters voted precisely to force a situation that is already happening. Inward EU migration is slowing and as a result the U.K. is having to think of other ways to replace those workers. In the case of the NHS there is a recognition that homegrown training places have to rise exponentially. We are also seeing a rise in productivity as companies seek to invest in their workers and businesses instead of relying on cheap EU Labour. The upshot of that is a clear contribution to the rise in wages
You might have to contemplate sometime in the future an admission that you called this wrong.

:T
"You might have to contemplate sometime in the future an admission that you called this wrong."
Yes, just as they should admit that their powers of extra-sensory perception are wrong.
How anyone can claim to know just what workers I least want to see in the UK without either knowing me personally or my having specifically stated exactly what I want I do not know.
What do you think my chances are of a straight answer as to how they know?

Pauciloquent_1_2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

More to do with an ageing population. 8% of the workforce now works in healthcare in one capacity or another. Likewise post war baby boomers are retiring on their gold plated pensions. Recruitment from Eire has been going on for decades.

That might well be a partial cause for recent shortfalls but be honest, the NHS has imported significant numbers of both doctors and nurses for well over 50 years with for example over 18,000 doctors being recruited from the Indian subcontinent in the 1960's or the many thousands of nurses arriving from the Caribbean, Malaysia, Maritius and more starting in the very late 1940's.

If, as Tromking correctly says, home-grown recruitment increases thus in effect also increasing productivity and wages it can only have a positive effect on the overall economy of the UK.

Not, according to ilovehouses' somewhat warped perception, that it has much to do with Brexit.
Other than of course that it has been the catalyst to start the ball rolling so to speak.
Isn't it strange how according to some only anything negative in nature is attributable to Brexit?

Moby

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-traveller-charge-single-market-border-control-visa-european-union-a8321891.html

This is our future while Emmanuel Macron makes waves in America and France is now the face of Europe.

Herzlos

Moby wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-traveller-charge-single-market-border-control-visa-european-union-a8321891.html

This is our future while Emmanuel Macron makes waves in America and France is now the face of Europe.

That's better than the ESTA for the US, about 1/3rd the price and lasts an extra year. What worries me more is the extra time it'll take to get through borders. Flying into any big US airport with an ESTA you still need to allow an hour for the queue.