Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

...
It's pretty clear what remaining involves - we remain in the EU and continue to have a say in how it evolves. We don't need to predict where the EU will go because (a) we have no idea and (b) we're able to block the changes we don't like.
...

b) is clearly untrue.

We voted against the budget expansion proposals in 2010, and we were outvoted.

As the EU enlarges, it will have to move to QMV. That's pretty much obvious.

I feel confident that our 'say' is worth less, now that over half the voting public said we don't want to remain in the EU.

If the people of Greece had voted to leave the EU, I would question their commitment to the project too.

Why do you think the EU would accept us back into the EU core? It's patent nonsense. If they wanted a show of faith, the opportunity was there during the Cameron European roadshow.

He was publicly snubbed, plain and simple.

Filo25

kabayiri wrote: »

So what do you think we should do?

Do you think a managed border solution is feasible?

Are there good reasons why a managed border solution should not be acceptable to all reasonable people?

I'm a pragmatist, not a political idealist. Brexit is all about pragmatism.

I don't think a Hard Border is acceptable to a large number of the nationalist community in Northern Ireland for pretty obvious historical reasons.

If it came at a time like now where power sharing is in limbo, we are looking at the possible imposition of direct rule again and where the government can no longer be an impartial broker as it is in the DUP's back pocket then I think we have potentially a very serious problem.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

b) is clearly untrue.

We voted against the budget expansion proposals in 2010, and we were outvoted.

As the EU enlarges, it will have to move to QMV. That's pretty much obvious.

I feel confident that our 'say' is worth less, now that over half the voting public said we don't want to remain in the EU.

If the people of Greece had voted to leave the EU, I would question their commitment to the project too.

Why do you think the EU would accept us back into the EU core? It's patent nonsense. If they wanted a show of faith, the opportunity was there during the Cameron European roadshow.

He was publicly snubbed, plain and simple.

We've always been a reluctant and obstinate member, and it might take a few years but we'd be able to get back to our previous status within the EU. We'll regain our lost influence.

We won't regain anything from outside - influence or control.

We're definitely worse off than if we hadn't voted leave, and the remainers will be sure that the leavers don't forget it for a long time. But that doesn't mean we're not better off in the EU than out - Brexiting despite knowing it's worse in every way is nothing short of stubborn self-mutilation.

iro

Herzlos wrote: »

We've always been a reluctant and obstinate member, and it might take a few years but we'd be able to get back to our previous status within the EU. We'll regain our lost influence.

We won't regain anything from outside - influence or control.

We're definitely worse off than if we hadn't voted leave, and the remainers will be sure that the leavers don't forget it for a long time. But that doesn't mean we're not better off in the EU than out - Brexiting despite knowing it's worse in every way is nothing short of stubborn self-mutilation.

We've always been a reluctant and obstinate member, and it might take a few years but we'd be able to get back to our previous status within the EU. We'll regain our lost influence.


You do not get it do you?

Many of us believe that the more the EU punish us the better Brexit will be.

Once we are a 'third country' we can exploit every structural weakness (and there are many) that the EU has and will have in its flawed model of top down bureaucracy.

the remainers will be sure that the leavers don't forget it for a long time.


Bring it on!

https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6

How is that whole 'be nice to leavers so they change their minds going?'

Herzlos

iro wrote: »

We've always been a reluctant and obstinate member, and it might take a few years but we'd be able to get back to our previous status within the EU. We'll regain our lost influence.


You do not get it do you?

Many of us believe that the more the EU punish us the better Brexit will be.

Once we are a 'third country' we can exploit every structural weakness (and there are many) that the EU has and will have in its flawed model of top down bureaucracy.

the remainers will be sure that the leavers don't forget it for a long time.


Bring it on!

https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6

How is that whole 'be nice to leavers so they change their minds going?'

That's... wow.

The worst Brexit is for us the better because we can use that new weakness to exploit the eu? With what?

Pauciloquent_1_2

Well something's not encouraging Norway or Switzerland to join the EU.
Not Iceland either, judging by this: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/04/23/eu-views-independence-nuisance-iceland-warns/

That'll be why the EU is instead trying to expand by encouraging the likes of those economic powerhouses Albania and Macedonia to join then.

iro

Herzlos wrote: »

That's... wow.

The worst Brexit is for us the better because we can use that new weakness to exploit the eu? With what?

With 43% youth unemployment in parts of the EU are doing a fine job of f--ing it up themselves:T

Pauciloquent_1_2

iro wrote: »

So that is your considered opinion?

it is not that difficult to have a proper profile picture (they tell me) instead of that joke flag you have got on yours.

Even discounting totally missing that a quote was in fact posted too, the "being nice to leavers" is non-existent here by the looks of it.
That's why repeatedly the poster is derided rather than the subject matter.

Here's how I suggest you do it next time:

iro wrote: »

So that is your considered opinion?

it is not that difficult to have a proper profile picture (they tell me) instead of that joke flag you have got on yours.

So your first highlighted draws attention to the fact you quoted as well as which part you are responding too.
And the second response in contrasting to make it easy for remainers to know which part you're responding too because otherwise they seem to have trouble with that concept.
Of course, you'll still get derision for doing that because, to a remainer, a Brexiter can never be right.
The colour will be unreadable; there's a letter "y" in the day; whatever.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

We've always been a reluctant and obstinate member, and it might take a few years but we'd be able to get back to our previous status within the EU. We'll regain our lost influence.
...

That's blind faith though. Why would the core members give additional status to the first ever member of the EU to exit?

Turn it around. If it were Spain who were the exiting member, do you think there'd be a big clamour here to welcome them back into the fold, and give them loads of fishing rights and stuff?

I don't think so.

Maybe in a generation's time they will think differently, but then again....there is still bitter resentment over the rebate Maggie T negotiated.

Herzlos

I still think that if handled correctly all of the damage can be undone eventually. We've made a fool of ourselves but no bridges have been burnt. We'd at least be starting from a better position than leaving or trying to rejoin later.

We haven't actually told them what leaving will entail yet, so if we said to them "we've been rash and leaving is in no-ones best interests. How much do we owe you to forget the whole mess and withdraw A50?" they' happily accept us back; it's in their interest too.

It's no more blind faith than thinking Brexit will work, since it relies on pragmatism rather than fanaticism.


I didn't address the "being nice to leavers" thing because there's nothing to address. I'm responding to the posts and not the people (I've long since lost track of which accounts are the same people). If you feel I'm making personal attacks then I apologise.