Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

mayonnaise

iro wrote: »

For some reason I have always treated Cleggy as a contrary indicator, that is if he is in favour of it I am against it.

I tend to make up my mind about things by educating myself on the issue, looking at positives, negatives and then draw a conclusion.

But to each their own I guess.

Malthusian

mayonnaise wrote: »

I tend to make up my mind about things by educating myself on the issue, looking at positives, negatives and then draw a conclusion.

The most important skill for an enlightened, open-minded progressive thinker is to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be in that order.

wunferall

Malthusian wrote: »

The most important skill for an enlightened, open-minded progressive thinker is to remember that it doesn't necessarily have to be in that order.

Either way I'm afraid the poster you quote is ruled out.

Just for one recent example (and believe me there's lots more) they very recently tried to tell this forum that :

mayonnaise wrote: »

6 in 10 Britons don't understand their electricity bill.

Besides being very wrong (the latest shows 20%) it completely ignores why, even though such reports all clearly give reasons.

Even energy experts admit that understanding the figures on utility bills can be a challenge.

http://www.gocompare.com/covered/2017/10/why-do-people-still-not-understand-their-energy-bills/

It really looks like "I tend to make up my mind about things by educating myself on the issue" really means "I tend to make up my mind about things by finding what suits my bias, whether it is true or not".

kabayiri

I really don't get all this chicanery about the Irish border.

It's just not that big a deal to the majority who live in mainland UK. Oh the politicians may squeak about a few votes, but that's their problem.

The process seems simple to me :-
a) you agree a backstop position between the EU and the leaving state
b) you try and negotiate an improved position before the A50 clock runs down.

If you fail in b) you revert to a).

Ultimately, the EU knows that it is dealing with a nation state, and it will be very hard to enforce things years/decades down the line. Right now, we might want more trade with the EU, but that's not a given in years to come.

We're probably squabbling over the troublesome period in the immediate aftermath of leaving.

Herzlos

The Tories are being propped up by the DUP, who very much care about the border.

Whatever happens with the border, most of the UK will stop caring once it falls out of the news. For the people who live near said border, which has a volatile history, the border arrangement is a huge deal, especially if the good Friday agreement is violated.

If May had a spine she should just say screw it to the gfa agreement, opt for a hard border and hire an extra thousand or so soldiers to keep the peace. Or give the NI citizens a referendum on whether they want to be in the UK or Ireland and get it over with. But she doesn't, so this will run until she admits it's impossible and reneges on the back stop. It's a non issue when she back peddles on the customs union too.

Filo25

Herzlos wrote: »

The Tories are being propped up by the DUP, who very much care about the border.

Whatever happens with the border, most of the UK will stop caring once it falls out of the news. For the people who live near said border, which has a volatile history, the border arrangement is a huge deal, especially if the good Friday agreement is violated.

If May had a spine she should just say screw it to the gfa agreement, opt for a hard border and hire an extra thousand or so soldiers to keep the peace. Or give the NI citizens a referendum on whether they want to be in the UK or Ireland and get it over with. But she doesn't, so this will run until she admits it's impossible and reneges on the back stop. It's a non issue when she back peddles on the customs union too.

You would probably need a lot more than 1000 more troops if you want to rip up the GFA, still maybe for some who are evangelical about the glories of a hard brexit the possibility of a few dead bodies might be a small price to pay....

Herzlos

Quite likely. I don't think anyone regards a hard Brexit as glorious though, just the unfortunate consequence of Mays red lines.

House of lords provide another blow to Mays Brexit. This time the removal of human rights charter:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-rights-charter-uk-government-house-of-lords-withdrawal-bill-a8318731.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

Filo25

Herzlos wrote: »

Quite likely. I don't think anyone regards a hard Brexit as glorious though, just the unfortunate consequence of Mays red lines.

House of lords provide another blow to Mays Brexit. This time the removal of human rights charter:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-rights-charter-uk-government-house-of-lords-withdrawal-bill-a8318731.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook

A few on the Right of the Tory party would probably regard it as glorious, and May seems to largely bend to their will.

BobQ

We may well take the view that NI does not matter, but what does that say about the UK and its approach to respecting the views of minorities?

Unless we really mean this and want to see a resurgence of the past troubles we will be committing ourselves to military intervention into the Irish problem. Alternatively we try to find a solution for the land border.

In a political sense we have a Government that it internally divided but has the outward policy that we will leave the customs union and single market but retain an open border. It never was going to be possible and it never will. The best we can have is a fudge based on a lightly regulated border.

From a trade viewpoint it might be manageable, but as a way of taking control of our borders it is deeply flawed as it enables ever EU citizen and every illegal EU immigrant to enter the UK. What was it that Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farage used to say about all those Romanians and Bulgarians entering the UK.......

Herzlos

BobQ wrote: »

We may well take the view that NI does not matter, but what does that say about the UK and its approach to respecting the views of minorities?

The Tory government has made it clear it doesn't respect minorities and foreigners.

From a trade viewpoint it might be manageable, but as a way of taking control of our borders it is deeply flawed as it enables ever EU citizen and every illegal EU immigrant to enter the UK. What was it that Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farage used to say about all those Romanians and Bulgarians entering the UK.......

Even from a trade point of view it's problematic.

I find it bizarre that Leave was based on stopping immigration yet Leavers are happy to just have no control on our only land border. As if many of them are incapable of being critical of May or Brexit.