Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Thrugelmir

Herzlos wrote: »

I genuinely don't see any of their actual concerns being fixed by leaving the EU.

Well the EU certainly isn't going to fix them. Hardly surprising there's a growing disconnect in general with politics. At least we can change and elect our own Government. Rather than imposed rule from afar.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

...
Could that be because (a) it's a central pillar of the EU and (b) it's not actually an issue? It's been hyped to be a big thing, but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
...

We have had several decades of FOM and mass migration. I'm frequently told it's a massive benefit by the politicians, so where is this economic miracle then?

Certainly, FOM has resulted in job insecurity; people get away with treating migrant workers like fodder. We have housing departments like Hounslow desperately trying to reallocate people to other areas.

We have the Beeb reporting yesterday about the UK shifting into less productive work. Certainly, FOM has meant we are not short of coffee shop workers.

I can run the figures and tell you what an automated plant, or a robot cell, will save you...because I have done it before. So you tell me why a migrant worker is more efficient at stock picking than a fully automated system..

I am confident that FOM will be dead on the ground in the EU within a decade. It's either that or fracturing West from East EU zone.

Moby

kabayiri wrote: »

It's not really a good idea to have a troublesome neighbour on your Eastern border, and an angry one on your Western border.

Germany should know this more than most. Fighting on 2 fronts isn't something they remember fondly.

Why don't you let the Germans worry about that. In any event the EU is a highly political project to get us away from thinking like old Europeans that fought war after war when we were not competing in trade. The EU led to the eastern European states being integrated in the west instead of being within Russia's orbit. Its led to states co-operating on trade instead of competing to the detriment of everyone and its reduced the likelihood of any further wars between France and Germany. Free movement allows us to travel around Europe without hindrance.

Britain has chosen to walk away from this project and has chosen to put our future in the hands of people who are extremists even in the tory party. Their promises are a sham. The EU have no intention of allowing us to be successful. We will now be in a permanent state of dispute with them for years and years. That will obviously affect us far more than the 27. Why would people want such a future is totally beyond me. Working class people in Sunderland, Boston etc are not suddenly going to morph into Mogg like entrepreneurs who will take advantage of the new freedoms and turn us into a new Hong Kong/Singapore. That is risible. The same areas that are poor and deprived now will remain so, only this time there'll be no money from the EU either! Being Welsh I know only too well how deprived much of my country is. I also know however that the brexit vote in Wales was a protest over East European immigration from traditional working class people who saw 'the Polish immigrants' as a threat. Such people are in my own family. They saw our small town change in culture because of the immigration and they felt threatened by it. The same people are not now energising themselves for a great new free trade future on the world stage. There futures will be even poorer but what they have done is give the levers of power to people they have absolutely nothing in common with.

Tromking

cogito wrote: »

If rumours I hear are correct, SPD members won't be getting the vote that Schulz promised them. Each constituency will get one vote which means that the Germans could finally have a government by the weekend with AfD as the official opposition.

I’m not sure an EU with a dominant Germany trying to placate its increasingly far right electorate is a good place for the UK to be.
We’re getting out at the right time.

cogito

Moby wrote: »

Why don't you let the Germans worry about that. In any event the EU is a highly political project to get us away from thinking like old Europeans that fought war after war when we were not competing in trade. The EU led to the eastern European states being integrated in the west instead of being within Russia's orbit. Its led to states co-operating on trade instead of competing to the detriment of everyone and its reduced the likelihood of any further wars between France and Germany. Free movement allows us to travel around Europe without hindrance.

Britain has chosen to walk away from this project and has chosen to put our future in the hands of people who are extremists even in the tory party. Their promises are a sham. The EU have no intention of allowing us to be successful. We will now be in a permanent state of dispute with them for years and years. That will obviously affect us far more than the 27. Why would people want such a future is totally beyond me. Working class people in Sunderland, Boston etc are not suddenly going to morph into Mogg like entrepreneurs who will take advantage of the new freedoms and turn us into a new Hong Kong/Singapore. That is risible. The same areas that are poor and deprived now will remain so, only this time there'll be no money from the EU either! Being Welsh I know only too well how deprived much of my country is. I also know however that the brexit vote in Wales was a protest over East European immigration from traditional working class people who saw 'the Polish immigrants' as a threat. Such people are in my own family. They saw our small town change in culture because of the immigration and they felt threatened by it. The same people are not now energising themselves for a great new free trade future on the world stage. There futures will be even poorer but what they have done is give the levers of power to people they have absolutely nothing in common with.

What people like you just don't get is that the people of EU member countries on the whole do not want the kind of EU that they are being led into without their consent. They are happy with being able to trade freely with their neighbours but they do not want to become the equivalent of a small parish council. On the only occasions that the people of the EU have been allowed a voice on new treaties, they have rejected them and forced to vote again and again until they gave the correct answer or the name on the treaty was changed to make it look like it was something different.

You are seeing the rise of so called 'populism' which is nothing but a derogatory term used by europhiles to describe those with whom they disagree. Why do you suppose that is? Look at Italy which has seen no economic growth in this century and is groaning under the weight of its debt because it is tied to a currency which favours Germany and the Netherlands at the expense of nearly every other member and is denied the tools to help itself. If the opinion polls are to be believed, the result of the Italian election will be a nightmare for the EU and it will be one which they have brought upon themselves.

Herzlos

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Well the EU certainly isn't going to fix them. Hardly surprising there's a growing disconnect in general with politics. At least we can change and elect our own Government. Rather than imposed rule from afar.

We could already do that and the people we elected didn't fix the problems unless told to be the eu. Now with no eu why will they start fixing things?)


Cogito, that asking the question until they get the correct answer is a lie, always has been and you've been corrected on it several times.

Herzlos

kabayiri wrote: »

We have had several decades of FOM and mass migration. I'm frequently told it's a massive benefit by the politicians, so where is this economic miracle then?

Certainly, FOM has resulted in job insecurity; people get away with treating migrant workers like fodder. We have housing departments like Hounslow desperately trying to reallocate people to other areas.

We have the Beeb reporting yesterday about the UK shifting into less productive work. Certainly, FOM has meant we are not short of coffee shop workers.

I can run the figures and tell you what an automated plant, or a robot cell, will save you...because I have done it before. So you tell me why a migrant worker is more efficient at stock picking than a fully automated system..

I am confident that FOM will be dead on the ground in the EU within a decade. It's either that or fracturing West from East EU zone.

We've had decades of prosperity aided by fom.
Migrants definitely get abused.
We should be far more worried about automation than foreigners, though there are some things we can't automate.

Tromking

Herzlos wrote: »

We've had decades of prosperity aided by fom.
Migrants definitely get abused.
We should be far more worried about automation than foreigners, though there are some things we can't automate.

Depends if you define prosperity by increased profits for the bosses or the wealth and well being of individual citizens.
The UK needs to wean itself off the bottomless supply of cheap labour and the resultant negative effects of that on UK citizens and the migrants themselves.
Already we are seeing the results of decreased inward EU migration with wages set to grow this year. If automation can reduce the need for foreign agricultural workers then perhaps we can as a nation start to fill those 30K NHS vacancies we have.

Herzlos

At the risk of trying to start some new discussions...

What do people think about the threats from Japanese businesses?
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/961640952128528385

Or that we're apparently likely to get about 1200 EU haulage licenses but have somewhere between 17,000-35,000 drivers who'd need them to continue their job?

Herzlos

Tromking wrote: »

perhaps we can as a nation start to fill those 30K NHS vacancies we have.

Are you proposing we pay and treat them well enough to get locals to take the jobs? I can get behind that 100%