Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

phillw

kabayiri wrote: »

Surely, FOM - which we still have, means that anyone who prefers the EU democratic system can go and move to an EU country with a model closer to that?

What? More than half the population of the country leaving? really?

Rough_Justice wrote: »

I know by now that posting such material here is akin to lighting the blue touchpaper for some, remainers especially

Sure, what boris is offering sounds great if you let yourself be manipulated. It's like offering heroin to junkies. It doesn't mean it's good for you.

Rough_Justice wrote: »

Has no-one mentioned the EU's powdered milk mountain this week?
Another excellent example of just how well (not) the EU's farming policy works.

Well the benefit is that you'll see how disasterous the alternative is. Really.

westernpromise wrote: »

"The rich" means anyone they envy or resent for being smart, hard-working or especially both.

In general remain voters.

cogito wrote: »

OK. I get it. You'd much rather be governed by politicians from bastions of democracy like Poland and Hungary whose sole interest is how much they can extract from the EU rather than what they can contribute to it. Personally, I prefer our own politicians for all their faults.

And there is the xenophobia. I thought the whole point about voting leave was to avoid contributing and extracting as much as possible? That is ok for the UK but not other nations? Maybe you are just projecting your own faults onto them?

Tromking

cogito wrote: »

I can elect my owm MP and I can elect my own MEP. The difference is that my MP can propose legislation but my MEP cannot. My MEP can only discuss legislation handed down to him by the EU Commission.

I did not vote for them and I cannot get rid of them which makes them completely unaccountable to anyone but themselves. In what way is that democratic?

Well said.
Even before we’ve left, the restoration of our democracy is quite evident. We now have a national parliament disappearing up its own jacksey trying fathom how to enact a clear instruction via the referendum from the British people. It’s beautiful to watch.

Tromking

phillw wrote: »

And there is the xenophobia. I thought the whole point about voting leave was to avoid contributing and extracting as much as possible? That is ok for the UK but not other nations? Maybe you are just projecting your own faults onto them?

It’s not xenophobia to flag up the quite obvious negative nationalist traits of places like Hungary and Poland. There is also a big difference between a country as a net contributor honourably choosing to leave and one where they like taking the money but fail to live to their responsibilities in other ways.

Moby

phillw wrote: »

You realise the commissioners are appointed by individual member states & that the elected parliament can remove them with a vote of no confidence?

Which makes them as democratic as our prime minister and house of lords. You don't directly get to vote for either of those in the UK either. I guess you drank Nigels koolaid.

The problem is brexiteers don't let the truth get in the way of their fantasy of an unaccountable EU super state grinding us down. The hypocrisy in this of course is that the very same people are completely oblivious about the elites within their own shores who have been shafting them for years. Do you really think that Rees Mogg cares about your future. He's a posturing public school throwback to the 19th century who has nothing to say to young people growing up in globalised world.

cogito

phillw wrote: »

And there is the xenophobia. I thought the whole point about voting leave was to avoid contributing and extracting as much as possible? That is ok for the UK but not other nations? Maybe you are just projecting your own faults onto them?

If you thought that was the point, you simply haven't been paying attention.

But on the subject of xenophobia, do you think that it is a uniquely British phenomenon? Do you spend any time in eastern Europe and hear what the Poles have to say about Ukrainians?

It's quite ironic really that getting on for a million Poles have headed for other EU countries to work. This has led to labour shortages in Poland and, hey ho, workers from Ukraine have moved in to fill the vacuum. And now the Poles are saying the kind of things about them that a small minority of people in the UK, one of the most tolerant societies on the planet, say about the Poles and other foreign workers.

gfplux

ukcarper wrote: »

Citizens of many countries including USAand Australia do not need a visa to travel to E.U. for less than 90 days do you really think E.U. would treat us differently.

The EU will not treat Britain differently to Australia and the USA.
From about 2020 all citizens of all country’s outside the Schengen Zone will need to complete a EU type ESTA called an ETIAS.

I have posted links to it before but here it is again.

https://etias.com

And

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/


Travelling to the USA requires an ESTA. The ETIAS will only worry Britains who have problems with the ESTA.

gfplux

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Never required a visit to travel around Europe. FOM has nothing to do with travel per se. More the ability to work, reside and claim benefits.

See my post on the ETIAS

gfplux

ukcarper wrote: »

I travelled to a number of Europe’s countries in 70s without the need of a visa.

See my post on the new ETIAS

gfplux

cogito wrote: »

I can elect my owm MP and I can elect my own MEP. The difference is that my MP can propose legislation but my MEP cannot. My MEP can only discuss legislation handed down to him by the EU Commission.

I did not vote for them and I cannot get rid of them which makes them completely unaccountable to anyone but themselves. In what way is that democratic?

Did you vote at the last two General elections and also vote for a MEP.
While the turnout for the GE’s were +70% very few people turned out to vote for an MEP.

I hope all posters who are allowed to vote and talk about democracy have consistently voted in General Elections, Bi Elections, Elections for an MEP and Council elections.
When considering the turnouts at the above too many people can not be ars*d to vote.

There is an election for the Welsh Essembly in a few days and the last time the turnout was 35%
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alyn_and_Deeside_by-election,_2018

gfplux

Herzlos wrote: »

It depends on how we treat EU citizens. Will we allow EU citizens visa free travel to the UK? If we do that, but don't allow them any rights to work, will that keep the Brexiteers happy?

With ESTA and Now ETIAS Britain surely will have its own UK-ESTA in due course.
These huge data bases require a lot of work (ask the experts) it also costs a lot of money and takes a long time.
Work has probably started as it could be linked to the Home Office giving settled status to 3 million EU nationals living in Britain.