Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Moby

cogito wrote: »

These fifty countries include global powerhouses like the Faroe Islands, San Marino, Kosovo and the Palestinian authority but not the likes of the USA, China, India and Brazil. In all its existence, the number of agreements this organisation has succeeded in negotiating less than one per annum.

They proudly announced an agreement with Japan on the day that Brexit talks began. Oh wait. It was an agreement to talk about a possible agreement. Given the glacial pace at which the EU proceeds with such talks, we can expect an agreement to be concluded with the Japanese some time in the next century.

.........and Brexiteers are convinced we can do better on our own. You put your trust in blerts like Gove, Fox and Johnson to deliver. Unbelievable naivety and you are selling out on the interests of the coming generation as well in the process. In any event the people who voted for Brexit don't know anything about trade; you think the typical Brexiteer in Barnsley or Sunderland was getting frustrated about the glacial pace of EU trade deals? No, Iike I said it was a narrow and small minded resentment that people in Eastern Europe were taking advantage etc, doing better than them, taking what they perceived as their resources etc. Such people don't see ahead enough however, they don't understand that as our economy shrinks in the coming years, free marketeers like Johnson, Gove and Fox won't give a toss for them and they'll be even less well off as food price inflation kicks in.

Moby

Arklight wrote: »

No they aren’t.

Most countries in the world are client states of larger powers. The EU has managed to make European countries marginally independent of the United States. Despite the fact that there are around 55,000 American soldiers on permanent deployment. To 'protect' us from Russia, a country that has already been threatened with a first strike nuclear attack and told there will be no ground war.

We had some considerable say in what went on in the EU. We had no say in the US.

We now have no say in the US, no say in the EU, and next to no ability to project influence even into our near abroad.

Great job Brexiteers.

This is crucial. We are giving up influence in the local power bloc during a period of great change in the world. Madness.

cogito

Daniel54 wrote: »

The terms of the trade agreement between Japan and the EU were finalised on the 8th of this month .

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

Let me know when it's been ratified.

buglawton

I don't recall there being an EU during WW1 or WW2. Yet likeminded countries quickly joined together in defence against a new and unforeseen threat. NATO exists for this purpose today. Let's not use defence as an excuse for the UK to be part of the federal states of Europe.

gfplux

vivatifosi wrote: »

A good piece on the EU by Carl Bildt, former FM and PM of Sweden. Says that the triple threat of BTP (Brexit, Trump, Putin) are keeping the EU together, and that the current economics helping keep warm and fuzzy, however the issues facing the EU could easily rise again.

An interesting read for moderates on both sides of the debate:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/macron-moment-for-eu-reform-by-carl-bildt-2017-12

Thank you Vivatifosi, an interesting read.

gfplux

tracey3596 wrote: »

Irrelevant.
The point is that whilst members of the EU we are unable to formally discuss and/or arrange such a deal due to EU restrictions.

Tracey, the EU didn't just make that up to give Britain a problem. It's one of the "rules"
The EU is full of rules and any country wanting to be a member has to sign up to all of them. Britain did just that.
We, you may not like that particular one but that's how the EU works.
When Britain was asked, in the referendum, if it wanted to engage in the extremely complex process of leaving the EU this is what it was signed up to. Both sides during the campaign made no mention of how difficult and detailed the process would be.

When Britain has left it will be able to make its own rules although it may find the rules (or price, thank you filo25) of other Country's, trade deals and trade organisations (like the WTO) will not make life as simple as some politicians say.

I believe you asked Moby if the EU was inward looking and protectionist. Actually I think it might be. However when you are inside it looks a lot better than when you are on the outside. The EU is not a charity. Nor is Britain. We ask our politicians to look after OUR interests. The EU looks after "its" interests and British politicians look after Britains interests. That's life.

tracey3596

gfplux wrote: »

Tracey, the EU didn't just make that up to give Britain a problem. It's one of the "rules"
The EU is full of rules and any country wanting to be a member has to sign up to all of them. Britain did just that.

Show us where we signed up to that?
We signed up to become a member of the Common Market, NOT the EU as it has become - and that is why now we have voted to leave. We don't want to be a member.
So again, show us where we, the UK public, signed up to belong to the EU?

Still, at least you do acknowledge that the EU is indeed "full of rules" - many of which are at best a minor irritation but also some which prove to be major stumbling blocks such as the ability to forge independent trade deals. Another may be in rules surrounding the judiciary system; see Poland. Or the imposition of unwanted terms; see Poland, Hungary & the Czech Republic re: migration.

tracey3596

gfplux wrote: »

When Britain has left it will be able to make its own rules although it may find the rules (or price, thank you filo25) of other Country's, trade deals and trade organisations (like the WTO) will not make life as simple as some politicians say.

I believe you asked Moby if the EU was inward looking and protectionist. Actually I think it might be. However when you are inside it looks a lot better than when you are on the outside. The EU is not a charity. Nor is Britain. We ask our politicians to look after OUR interests. The EU looks after "its" interests and British politicians look after Britains interests. That's life.

Indeed we will be able to make our own rules.

Even you must surely appreciate that this is far easier with one member negotiating rather than 28 (soon to be 27)? Why else do you thing that EU deals of any type take so long? CETA for example took over seven years.
Even a major disruption such as the "migrant crisis" leaves such a conglomeration of nations hobbled and unable to respond effectively in a timely manner; the EU are now approaching their third year of this particular fiasco and are no nearer to a solution now than they were when it began. How much of the EU is praying that Turkey do not renege on their deal which has cost the EU how many billions so far?

No, nether the UK nor the EU is a charity.
Perhaps you will remember this when the negotiations near completion and the EU continue to request countless billions from the UK without (so far) giving anything in return - and then wonder why the UK remains obstinate about making payment.

Corporal_Perkins

gfplux wrote: »

Tracey, the EU didn't just make that up to give Britain a problem. It's one of the "rules"
The EU is full of rules and any country wanting to be a member has to sign up to all of them. Britain did just that.

Firstly the UK didn't "sign up" to rules made on the cuff when the EU thinks them up without consulting all the other EU countries. IIRC The EU gave Eire a veto off the cuff. Secondly regarding the rules we did sign up to why does Germany run such a high trade surplus which is against EU rules?. Why do other EU countries fail to abide by the EU's debt rules?......... What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

We, you may not like that particular one but that's how the EU works.

You mean making rules up as and when they like without consulting other EU countries then I don't think any EU country likes it and won't stand for it. The migrant quota's being a good example where Hungary,Poland etc have told Merkel to go and do one. I don't think the EU understands how democracy works but they will find out soon enough but when the penny finally drops it will be too late.

I believe you asked Moby if the EU was inward looking and protectionist. Actually I think it might be. However when you are inside it looks a lot better than when you are on the outside.

How exactly is the EU protecting EU members when the country which runs the EU allows over 1,000,000 to just walk in without knowing who they are, where they are from or if they are a threat to EU Citizens.

How is the EU protecting Western European jobs when its subsidising the building of factories and buisnesses in Eastern Europe in direct competition to Western European businesses?..

Either your confused or the EU really don't care about "protecting its citizens"......

Ballard

tracey3596 wrote: »

Show us where we signed up to that?
So again, show us where we, the UK public, signed up to belong to the EU?

We didn't individually sign up to the EU just as we don't individually sign up to any laws in the UK. All we can do as citizens is to elect a representative into parliament and urge them to act in the way that we would like.

If we are an interested party in, say, fox hunting then we have the right to contact our MP and put our case across that it should either remain banned or be made legal once again. We then have to trust our representative in parliament to weigh up the pros and cons and vote accordingly. They may well not side with your viewpoint but you have to take this on the chin and possibly wait until the next general election where it's possible to vote them out of office.

That, as I see it, is what's happened with the EU. We (not me personally as I was too young) voted to join the common market which has since morphed into the EU. I don't have any copies of the various treaties that have been signed since the 70s (and nor do I ever want to see them) but our representatives have signed them on our behalf over the years.

This is how our democracy works. We don't have endless referendums for every vote in the house.

Edit: This point was also made by ilovehouses but I'm not deleting it now as it took me long enough to compose it.