Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

Moby

tracey3596 wrote: »

Really?
So why does the EU so badly want PESCO?

I'm all for it....you support your neighbours and they support you. Anything else is stupid.

kabayiri

gfplux wrote: »

Agreed. The bigger question is can the pendulum swing the other way?
I suspect not. Add apathy to cynicism to the electorate and perhaps Democracy is broken.

The one party state of China has done more for its' citizens over the last 3 decades than any other Western government I can think of.

They have seen levels of investment and growth which would embarass most European states.

We can't just trust that Western democracy will work for the people who matter (us). We have to see it deliver.

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

No...this is you wishful thinking out of EU hatred. You look for anything you can find that's wrong and concentrate on it, instead of the big picture. The big picture shows that the 26 have not been split by the UK and are presenting a united front. You go on about JUncker but don't say anything about Johnson, Gove or Fox. Do you know for instance that Gove has just said he would like to get rid of the working time directive. How do you think working class people will feel having their conditions of service decided by the tories?

It's not my hatred or wishful thinking though, is it?
It is that of the countries I quote above.
You say the 26 (26? Whatever happened to 27 then?) aren't split - but even Donald Tusk admits there are divisions within the EU.
Attempting to distract from the issue at hand by using Chinese whispers-type media non-stories as you are is disingenuous.

The fact remains that the EU are in reality about as democratic as Spain have been in their dealings with their own subjects, the Catalonians.
Iron fists rather than kid gloves.

gfplux

tracey3596 wrote: »

And rebutted quite a few times since that post. Do keep up.

Indeed the British public did vote to leave the EU - but it is this same EU that have decided to make the process of leaving "difficult, painful and complex". There is no need whatsoever for it to be so other than EU intransigence. Fortunately it has at least shown many British citizens that the vote had the correct outcome.

Yes, mostly irrelevant and with no real purpose other than EU quangoism.
Every single country outside the EU has their own laws.

Now you're just having a laugh!
Increasingly other EU member countries are seeing just how unfair the rules of the EU can be, hence the surge in populism within core EU countries like France, Germany and the Netherlands. Ask Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic - even your own Luxembourg who has just had it's appeal re: Apple fines rejected again as well as seen Juncker facing investigations for illegal wiretapping from before he resigned as PM in 2013.
Yes, democracy is difficult for some.

Hello Tracey,
So where are we?
You say the EU have shown (during the negotiations) how intransigent they are. I say they have kept their unity and discipline.
This has proved to British citizens that have voted to go through the difficult and complex process of leaving the EU that this difficult and painful process is worth going through
This has proved to other members of the EU that under the soft glove there are fingers of steel.
However who will hold firm during phase2?

You are ignoring popularism doesn't need the EU just look at the USA.
Politiciens under investigation is not unknown in Britain. In fact that's what we all dislike about democracy.
Perhaps Democracy is broken!

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

No...this is you wishful thinking out of EU hatred. You look for anything you can find that's wrong and concentrate on it, instead of the big picture. The big picture shows that the 26 have not been split by the UK and are presenting a united front. You go on about JUncker but don't say anything about Johnson, Gove or Fox. Do you know for instance that Gove has just said he would like to get rid of the working time directive. How do you think working class people will feel having their conditions of service decided by the tories?

The EU states know that the hard discussions are yet to come. All you highlight is the fact they have won all their battles with the UK thus far.

The interests of Poland are not aligned with somewhere like France. The potential for any states to break ranks is strong.

If I were UK negotiators, I would be stirring the pot with some of the more lukewarm members. But then....it's all about winning the best deal for me, not looking good in front of your political opponents back home.

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

I'm all for it....you support your neighbours and they support you. Anything else is stupid.

Yes, I suspect many Ukrainians are no doubt very thankful for that.

Do you think this will free up the Nato forces in Eastern Europe then?



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-nato-border-forces-map-where-are-they-positioned-a7562391.html

Arklight

buglawton wrote: »

I don't recall there being an EU during WW1 or WW2. Yet likeminded countries quickly joined together in defence against a new and unforeseen threat. NATO exists for this purpose today. Let's not use defence as an excuse for the UK to be part of the federal states of Europe.

There wouldn’t have been a WW1 or 2 if there had been an EU.

:wall:

tracey3596

Moby wrote: »

I do I just come to a different end result than you. The brexiteer vision of Johnson, Gove and Fox does not attract me. I'm a worker who will fight for his rights and won't just bend over to the elite in the UK.

Whereas the federalist views of Junckers, Tusk, Schulz etc. and indeed of much of the EU do not attract me.
I'm a worker who will fight for her rights and the rights of her children and will not just bend over to the elites of a would-be-superpower EU.

gfplux

tracey3596 wrote: »

Whereas the federalist views of Junckers, Tusk, Schulz etc. and indeed of much of the EU do not attract me.
I'm a worker who will fight for her rights and the rights of her children and will not just bend over to the elites of a would-be-superpower EU.

Good for you.
Workers rights are very important.
So forgive me......

One of the major arguments FOR the EU has been the protection of workers rights and enshrining that in law that Britain has (been forced to?) adopted.
A number of the senior supporters of taking the difficult, long and complex course of leaving the EU want to dismantle many of the "rules and regulations" forced on Britain including workers rights.
How is supporting the arduous and challenging process of leaving the EU fighting for your workers rights?
How does supporting the laborious and testing process of leaving the EU defending the rights of your children?

Ballard

tracey3596 wrote: »

And rebutted quite a few times since that post. Do keep up.

I haven’t seen any posts contradicting my view that the UK parliament has signed up to various EU treaties over the years and that those who signed on the dotted line did so on behalf of the citizens of the UK. I am open to other viewpoints and would be grateful if you would post a link to such posts. Additionally perhaps you would like to add your thoughts on it as I am interested to hear them.