Brexit, the economy and house prices part 5

tracey3596

gfplux wrote: »

Sorry Tracey,
I thought Brexit was about taking control of Britains borders.
To control your borders you have to CONTROL THE BORDERS.
If you have a border between Britain and the EU27 You have to control the border.
If you have a border between Northern Ireland (Britain) and Ireland (one of the EU27) Britain has to control that border.
This also applies to Gibraltar and Spain.

You say the UK promised no hard borders. If that promise was ever made you should provide a link. Perhaps it was one of those promises like £350 million for the NHS.

No.
Brexit was about the UK wanting to leave the EU as per my earlier post. There may be many reasons why voters wanted this and the above may me amongst those reasons but is certainly not exclusively so as I suspect you know only too well from this thread alone, but you cannot resist your pro-EU stance it seems.
Here's just one example re: no hard border. There are many if you care to look but I suspect your bias will not allow that, just as it appears from your posts that you will not accept any evidence which is not pro-EU.

Theresa May: No hard border after Brexit

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/09/22/news/theresa-may-no-hard-border-after-brexit-1143949/

vivatifosi

A bit more on Pinky and Perky and their ludicrous Machiavellian scheming:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5096855/Gove-Johnson-s-letter-PM-contemptible.html

tracey3596

Filo25 wrote: »

I already did, but just to go over old ground, this government has decided that it doesn't want freedom of movement, which you seem to agree was what the referendum meant.

Both Norway and Switzerland allow freedom of movement and are also members of the Schengen accord, therefore not applicable to the UK with its current stance.

Although I suppose its encouraging to hear a Brexit supporter hailing the benefits of freedom of movement these days!

You don't half waffle to avoid answering (presumably because you can't) so it seems that I must make it really simple for you.

Why after saying they do not want a hard border in Ireland are the EU now insisting upon it, when the UK says it too does not want a hard border?

The border between Ireland and Northern Ireland should be "as open as possible" after Brexit and Northern Ireland should keep a right to fast-track EU membership, the Irish prime minister and European Commission chief said on Thursday (23 February).

https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/137011

Negotiations on Britain’s departure from the European Union must not undermine peace in Northern Ireland and there can be no “hard border” between the British province and the Irish Republic, Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny said on Thursday.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-ireland/irish-pm-says-we-must-not-return-to-hard-border-with-northern-ireland-idUKKBN17826X

Ireland will not let Brexit negotiations proceed next month unless we get a bulletproof guarantee on there being no return of a hard border on the island of Ireland.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/ireland-not-brexit-negotiations-proceed-11539592

There are lots more. Now can you answer the question above?

Filo25

tracey3596 wrote: »

You don't half waffle to avoid answering (presumably because you can't) so it seems that I must make it really simple for you.

Why after saying they do not want a hard border in Ireland are the EU now insisting upon it, when the UK says it too does not want a hard border?


https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/137011


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-ireland/irish-pm-says-we-must-not-return-to-hard-border-with-northern-ireland-idUKKBN17826X


http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/ireland-not-brexit-negotiations-proceed-11539592

There are lots more. Now can you answer the question above?

We come out with lots of this meaningless aspirational stuff in the negotiations so far, presumably to play to the crowds at home and to try to blame the big bad EU if it isn't delivered.

Nobody has yet come out with a practical solution of how we wouldn't have have a hard border given that we won't have freedom of movement of people or goods between the north and south (as we have chosen).

You rightly pointed out that it would be possible to avoid this if we had followed the Norwegian model but the government, and most Leave voters I have come across, appear to think this is unacceptable.

If you build a lot of the case for leaving the EU based on removing freedom of movement and controlling our borders you don't get to ignore it just because its inconvenient elsewhere, sorry to repeat myself again but talking about finding creative solutions isn't actually the same as finding them.

You did to be fair come up with a creative solution earlier, which was to actually have border control between Ireland and rUK, although that is unacceptable to the DUP as I pointed earlier and is also basically the solution that Ireland (rather than the UK) has proposed to the issue already.

cogito

Would someone please mind explaining to me how the Norway model would solve the border problem bearing in mind that Norway is in the single market and the Schengen area?

fewgroats

Is there a specific border problem, cognito? Every border has its own problems. It's no good ruining the economy and blaming it on fixing a border.

gfplux

tracey3596 wrote: »

No.
Brexit was about the UK wanting to leave the EU as per my earlier post. There may be many reasons why voters wanted this and the above may me amongst those reasons but is certainly not exclusively so as I suspect you know only too well from this thread alone, but you cannot resist your pro-EU stance it seems.
Here's just one example re: no hard border. There are many if you care to look but I suspect your bias will not allow that, just as it appears from your posts that you will not accept any evidence which is not pro-EU.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/09/22/news/theresa-may-no-hard-border-after-brexit-1143949/

Yes just like the big red bus but now in Florence.
She says it but does not know how to deliver it.
I know that if I buy a lottery ticket I will win the jackpot otherwise why would I buy the ticket.
PS Tracey. Yes I have a pro EU stance. Do I want Britain to prosper...YES.
HOWEVER if my best friend is just about to jump of a cliff I will do all I can to stop him/her

Rinoa

gfplux wrote: »

Yes just like the big red bus but now in Florence.
She says it but does not know how to deliver it.

Why should she go out of her way to offer a solution. It's basically a problem for the EU and Ireland.

When the EU are demanding money with menaces if we don't jump through all their hoops, we'd be foolish to offer help without substantial concessions coming the other way.

Tromking

Rinoa wrote: »

Why should she go out of her way to offer a solution. It's basically a problem for the EU and Ireland.

When the EU are demanding money with menaces if we don't jump through all their hoops, we'd be foolish to offer help without substantial concessions coming the other way.

Indeed so.
Clearly Ireland's membership of the Eurozone is now not condusive to its long held desire to have continued access to the UK internal market, and they say the UK wants it cake and eat it.

gfplux

vivatifosi wrote: »

If you Google "implications of brexit for Ireland's transport sectors", this should link you to a pdf that was published last month. It highlights the following problems with not using the "UK land bridge":

1. It takes between two and four times as long to transport goods.
2. There isn't the capacity to increase the flow.

This article is useful too, not as detailed, but illustrates the doubling of time point well:
https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/

Thank you vivatifosi. I have read the various PDF's as well as the analysis of the issue by Politico which I had seen before. I am better informed due to your guidance but this only makes it more obvious to me that those challenges can be solved if need be.
Almost every paragraph begs the question.....why
WHY are ferrys slow
WHY can't ferrys go faster
WHY is there not enough capacity
WHY are Irish ports not well equipped
WHY is there not enough infrastructure
WHY where those choices made
WHY does it sound so difficult.
WHY can't it be changed
WHY WHY WHY

As the old business bore would say "these difficulties sound like challenges" or "These problems were sent not to worry us but to be solved"

Yes I am only addressing one part of the border problem but solving big problems is about solving all the little problems that make up the big problem!