Brexit, the economy and house prices (Part 3)

Conrad

Now remember guys, we're a 'laughing stock';


UK Universities dominate global league tables. Not 1 EU Uni in top 25.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/uk-universities-global-ranking-brexit-reputation-eu-students-academics-science-research-oxford-a7928836.html

Conrad

andrewf75 wrote: »

One of my big concerns is that moderate people are going to get increasingly turned off to the point of complete political apathy. We may already be there.

Who decides where 'moderate' lies?


You?


I do not consider the endless talking down of our abilities moderate. I do not consider it moderate for Remain to endlessly have stated we are just not smart and big enough to do things like cross-border cooperation, or regulate our own aircraft sector or deal with WTO or manage a points based immigration system or stop ourselves eating chlorine chicken or unable to manage our own beaches (heard that one several times) and on and on it goes.


I do not consider mass immigration moderate in the slightest.


Just be honest about your views fine, but don't seek to frame them as somehow moderate which is an attempt to imply your views are of particular merit.


We Brexiteers endlessly get called racists and much, much more. Water off a ducks back. I don't expect others to worry about things that might offend me, so why all this routine virtue signalling from your side implying you never say anything pungent, it's a nonsense.

Rusty_Shackleton

Conrad wrote: »

You are mischaracterising this.

Lots of Remainers agree with virtually every utterance coming out of the EU negotiating team.

They then illogically and unreasonably criticise everything our side says and does.

This is not a reasoned assessment of facts, it's batting for the EU team at every turn. In effect a 5th column.

If you guys were more even handed then fair enough.

EXAMPLE - you should welcome us saying lets accelerate the talks by making them weekly. Instead all you do is applaud smug Barnier talking of clocks ticking.

You guys endlessly characterise us as weak and silly, a laughing stock, people without the ability to negotiate (recall all the 'we don't have the negotiators, we wont be able cope')

The problem is right here, you see agreeing with something the EU has said or criticising the UK team as batting for the other team, rather than a differing of opinion. Nobody here has actually said they agree with everything the EU side says or that they disagree with everything the UK says, it's just your perception. As for " illogically and unreasonably criticising everything the UK says", there are a lot of pro-remain posts here that give sources and back up their argument, so how is it illogical or unreasonable? Illogical or unreasonable would be someone saying "the EU are always right,t eh UK always wrong", but that's not happened. Also, have you seen your own posts about the UK side? It looks to me like you (and many other brexiters) can't see very obvious flaws in anything the UK does... how is that any different to what you accuse remainers of doing?

RE: your example. Barnier is right that the clock is ticking. Look at May calling a pointless and opportunistic election and triggering art. 50 before the French and German elections, thus wasting time since everyone knew there would be little movement until after?! As for the idea of accelerating talks, who here has said that's a bad idea? Personally I think it's a needed, but I also think it's pretty stupid that we agreed to this timetable in the first place given the known time constraints.

We do lack an ability to negotiate... Whitehall hasn't had to negotiate trade deals and a lot other areas for decades. That is fact, supported by the government trying to recruit negotiators from abroad! Our capacity problems are even admitted by Liam Fox:
http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-trade-negotiations-liam-fox-britain-does-not-have-capacity-to-strike-deals-now/

phillw

Rinoa wrote: »

They are unable to do so, but still insist we pay them.

Liam Fox was right. It's blackmail, pure and simple.

They have explained. Unfortunately the people they explained it to have a vested interest in saying they haven't.

The UK government position is blackmail. But apparently that is ok because we're Great Britain etc etc.

Rusty_Shackleton

Conrad wrote: »

Now remember guys, we're a 'laughing stock';


UK Universities dominate global league tables. Not 1 EU Uni in top 25.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/uk-universities-global-ranking-brexit-reputation-eu-students-academics-science-research-oxford-a7928836.html

Hmm, an interesting example the excellent world standing of UK universities. The EU obviously has no benefits to the HE and research sector... like Eurasmus, Horizon 2020, the cross border cooperation on large scale (and expensive) research such as nuclear fusion (facilitated by Euratom). Also, academics often move between institutions due to the way employment contracts often work, and quite often expect to work in foreign universities. While FoM of course isn't required for this, it does simplify it considerably.

Then of course there's things like this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-latest-scientist-andre-geim-graphene-discovery-university-manchester-eu-exit-withdrawal-a7886416.html

andrewf75

Conrad wrote: »

Who decides where 'moderate' lies?


You?


I do not consider the endless talking down of our abilities moderate. I do not consider it moderate for Remain to endlessly have stated we are just not smart and big enough to do things like cross-border cooperation, or regulate our own aircraft sector or deal with WTO or manage a points based immigration system or stop ourselves eating chlorine chicken or unable to manage our own beaches (heard that one several times) and on and on it goes.


I do not consider mass immigration moderate in the slightest.


Just be honest about your views fine, but don't seek to frame them as somehow moderate which is an attempt to imply your views are of particular merit.


We Brexiteers endlessly get called racists and much, much more. Water off a ducks back. I don't expect others to worry about things that might offend me, so why all this routine virtue signalling from your side implying you never say anything pungent, it's a nonsense.

Surely you can see the difference between how I debate and how you do?
Yes I was clearly a remainer, but my posts are exploring what we should do next, not points scoring and parrotting propaganda that suits my view. I argue against remainers I don't agree with and am not afraid to agree with leavers
That is moderate! You'd think that would earn respect, but someone like you probably prefers to argue against your opposite equivalent i.e. someone calling leave voters racists and preaching doom and gloom all the time.

Rusty_Shackleton

Conrad wrote: »

Who decides where 'moderate' lies?
You?

I do not consider the endless talking down of our abilities moderate. I do not consider it moderate for Remain to endlessly have stated we are just not smart and big enough to do things like cross-border cooperation, or regulate our own aircraft sector or deal with WTO or manage a points based immigration system or stop ourselves eating chlorine chicken or unable to manage our own beaches (heard that one several times) and on and on it goes.

I do not consider mass immigration moderate in the slightest.

Just be honest about your views fine, but don't seek to frame them as somehow moderate which is an attempt to imply your views are of particular merit.

We Brexiteers endlessly get called racists and much, much more. Water off a ducks back. I don't expect others to worry about things that might offend me, so why all this routine virtue signalling from your side implying you never say anything pungent, it's a nonsense.

Nobody discussing here is moderate, we all have very strong opinions in one direction or the other! The problem is when we see our opposites here as representative of the remainers or leavers over all. The vast majority of the electorate are not coming onto this or other forums to debate it.

Reaminers aren't saying we're too small or stupid to do those things Conrad, we're often pointing out it's far easier and cheaper to do so cooperating with others. There's also the problem that Whitehall lacks skills in a lot of these areas because they haven't dealt with them in a long time, and now we need to get those skills in ~18 months!

You mean that non-EU immigration which your beloved May, as home sec, didn't even attempt to control, and successive governments that have failed to use controls that other EU countries do? I agree uncontrolled immigration isn't moderate, the problem is that the EU rules around immigration ARE moderate, our own government just didn't use them.

As for the point about brexiters being racist. Can you find an example of brexiters being called racist here? I don't recall seeing it.. I've pointed out racists are brexiters, and gone to lengths to point out I'm not accusing all brexiters of being racist.

Filo25

Conrad wrote: »

Now remember guys, we're a 'laughing stock';


UK Universities dominate global league tables. Not 1 EU Uni in top 25.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/uk-universities-global-ranking-brexit-reputation-eu-students-academics-science-research-oxford-a7928836.html

Makes me proud that all those well educated folk in Oxford and Cambridge voted Remain in such massive numbers

TrickyTree83

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Nobody discussing here is moderate, we all have very strong opinions in one direction or the other! The problem is when we see our opposites here as representative of the remainers or leavers over all. The vast majority of the electorate are not coming onto this or other forums to debate it.

Reaminers aren't saying we're too small or stupid to do those things Conrad, we're often pointing out it's far easier and cheaper to do so cooperating with others. There's also the problem that Whitehall lacks skills in a lot of these areas because they haven't dealt with them in a long time, and now we need to get those skills in ~18 months!

You mean that non-EU immigration which your beloved May, as home sec, didn't even attempt to control, and successive governments that have failed to use controls that other EU countries do? I agree uncontrolled immigration isn't moderate, the problem is that the EU rules around immigration ARE moderate, our own government just didn't use them.

As for the point about brexiters being racist. Can you find an example of brexiters being called racist here? I don't recall seeing it.. I've pointed out racists are brexiters, and gone to lengths to point out I'm not accusing all brexiters of being racist.

Sadly there are posters on MSE who swan around throwing the racist and xenophobe accusation at leave voters. Leaves them with egg on their face when I point out I'm married to a Ukrainian woman.

Then they'll say "generally" without any evidence for the generalisation. The same can be said of the association between intelligence and education made by the press and remain voters.

It has been said that leave voters are racist, xenophobic, stupid, uneducated, etc... I find this thinking offensive. I would hope rational people would agree with me there.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Sadly there are posters on MSE who swan around throwing the racist and xenophobe accusation at leave voters. Leaves them with egg on their face when I point out I'm married to a Ukrainian woman.

Then they'll say "generally" without any evidence for the generalisation. The same can be said of the association between intelligence and education made by the press and remain voters.

It has been said that leave voters are racist, xenophobic, stupid, uneducated, etc... I find this thinking offensive. I would hope rational people would agree with me there.

:T
They will.
Though I strongly suspect that this will not include the likes of the poster you quote, which speaks volumes.

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Pretty much everything you've typed there just proves my point.

Untrue - but the rest of that response and indeed most of your posting does however prove a desire for antagonism rather than debate.