Brexit, the economy and house prices (Part 3)

A_Medium_Size_Jock

andrewf75 wrote: »

Surely you can see the difference between wanting everyone to agree with him and not finding it acceptable for opposing views to be labelled as a "fifth column" ?!

I wonder whether you and Rusty have objected to George Galloway?
Or to the media reporting which used the same terminology only yesterday?
Perhaps it is because you are ignorant as to the definition for the term, so I will (just this once) assist:

A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.

From Wiki.
Attempting such a "holier than though" stance here is frankly laughable.

Conrad

Staff shortages are pushing up pay, recruiters say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40853467

Rusty_Shackleton

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Ah, I guess you changed your mind about this then?
(#354)
So it's not debate you want now then, it is agreement?
Gotcha.

I'm not saying we need to agree, debate is healthy but I'm saying trying to shut down debate by calling people traitors/fifth columnists etc. is wrong, it's what dictators do.

setmefree2 wrote: »

I wasn't referring to the guardian as The Fifth Column - I was referring to Tony Blair, Mandleson, Campbell, Adonis, etc. I was also using this description as it was the left of the LP call them.

Fair enough, but the point stands - they are British citizens who have their own beliefs about what's best for the country. Just because you don't like what they have to say doesn't make them fifth columnists, and in a democracy they have every right to speak their mind. Speaking as a Corbyn supporter, I think the left of the LP should shut up with such language as well.

setmefree2 wrote: »

If you don't like this thread feel free to start your own....

You might want to call it "debate ONLY - no facts please".

fwiw I will continue to post on this one. I come on here for facts.

There are very few facts posted here, almost everything discussed is subjective. We would all be wise to be careful what we label as fact.

Conrad

ICELAND FOREIGN MINISTER TODAY;

'Everyone wants a free trade deal with Britain'.

https://order-order.com/2017/09/05/iceland-everyone-wants-free-trade-deal-britain/

Rusty_Shackleton

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

I wonder whether you and Rusty have objected to George Galloway?
Or to the media reporting which used the same terminology only yesterday?
Perhaps it is because you are ignorant as to the definition for the term, so I will (just this once) assist:

From Wiki.
Attempting such a "holier than though" stance here is frankly laughable.

George Galloway is always objectionable, but I wouldn't seek to silence him.

As for your definition of fifth columnists, it's spot on - can you see how you're applying it to people who disagree with you is a problem? People being pro-EU doesn't mean they're trying to 'sell the country out', it means they believe we are better in the EU and are fighting for for that belief. By your logic anyone who supports an opposition party would be a fifth columnist. Farage and co would have been fifth columnists pre-referendum. You are taking the stance of a dictator.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

I'm not saying we need to agree, debate is healthy but I'm saying trying to shut down debate by calling people traitors/fifth columnists etc. is wrong, it's what dictators do.

It is also the type of thing you do, on a regular basis:

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

Would you give such rubbish a rest?

That's not at all trying to "shut down debate by calling people" or their posts "rubbish" then?
How about:

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

what the **** are you on about?

Oh I see; trying to disguise foul language to "shut down debate" must be better, I suppose?
No?
Then how about:

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

You guys need to give the 'anti British' /unpatriotic/hate the UK accusations a rest, it reeks of trying to play the man instead of the ball ........

That isn't trying to "shut down debate" at all then?
A strangely familiar phrase that "man/ball" bit too.
Now, what's that well-known phrase .............
"thou doth protest too much".

Conrad

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

can you see how you're applying it to people who disagree with you is a problem? People being pro-EU doesn't mean they're trying to 'sell the country out', it means they believe we are better in the EU


.

You are mischaracterising this.

Lots of Remainers agree with virtually every utterance coming out of the EU negotiating team.

They then illogically and unreasonably criticise everything our side says and does.


This is not a reasoned assessment of facts, it's batting for the EU team at every turn. In effect a 5th column.


If you guys were more even handed then fair enough.


EXAMPLE - you should welcome us saying lets accelerate the talks by making them weekly. Instead all you do is applaud smug Barnier talking of clocks ticking.


You guys endlessly characterise us as weak and silly, a laughing stock, people without the ability to negotiate (recall all the 'we don't have the negotiators, we wont be able cope')

A_Medium_Size_Jock

For the first time ever the world's two top universities are in the UK

"Oxford took the top spot in the Times Higher Education's 2018 World University Rankings for the second year in a row, having knocked the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) off the top spot last year after it held the position between 2012 and 2016. Cambridge jumped from fourth to second place."
http://www.cityam.com/271407/first-time-ever-worlds-two-top-universities-uk

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings-2018-now-starring-cast-thousands

Switzerland take 10th place but the highest-ranked EU27 is Germany's LMU Munich at #34.
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#!/page/1/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats
A cracking result for the UK.
:T

Rusty_Shackleton

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

It is also the type of thing you do, on a regular basis:

That's not at all trying to "shut down debate by calling people" or their posts "rubbish" then?
How about:

Oh I see; trying to disguise foul language to "shut down debate" must be better, I suppose?
No?
Then how about:

That isn't trying to "shut down debate" at all then?
A strangely familiar phrase that "man/ball" bit too.
Now, what's that well-known phrase .............
"thou doth protest too much".

Pretty much everything you've typed there just proves my point. You seriously think me saying that people need to stop playing the man instead of the ball - because people keep trying to use personal attacks against the individual making the point rather than debating the point - is trying to shut down debate? That's trying to focus on debate, rather than pathetic character assassination attempts.

This board is full of brexiters trying to shout down any opposing views. There's plenty of mud slinging from all corners, I don't complain when others call me stupid (or worse), and I wouldn't consider (mild) insults to be shutting down debate... it's just heated.

People resorting to personal attacks and shouting down just keeps moderate voices away from the discussion, and completely undermines the point you're trying to make (and I've done exactly that myself at times, doesn't make this point any less valid).

andrewf75

Rusty_Shackleton wrote: »

People resorting to personal attacks and shouting down just keeps moderate voices away from the discussion.

Yep. I stayed away from it for months and I think I am about to bow out again. I argued passionately for remain but since the result have always been respectful to leavers and their arguments and have debated more with a view to opening my mind to ideas and how we should proceed rather than scoring points for one side against the other, but if we can't even agree that both sides have the interests of their country at heart then its pointless!
One of my big concerns is that moderate people are going to get increasingly turned off to the point of complete political apathy. We may already be there.