ESA Travel Abroad(holiday)

poppy12345

The point we're trying to make is going abroad for a couple of weeks in NOT a change of circumstances that needs reporting. Anyway, i've had my say and i'm out.

Charles_Foxtrot

poppy12345 said:

The point we're trying to make is going abroad for a couple of weeks in NOT a change of circumstances that needs reporting. Anyway, i've had my say and i'm out.

That’s what you say, but the government webpages say the complete opposite. So it’s up to whoever is reading this who to trust. I’d follow the guidance that the government gives, not your interpretation.

Spoonie_Turtle

Very strange.  This person's first post on the new forum was advising fraud, and now they're adamant that benefits claimants need to tell DWP of every holiday.

Charles_Foxtrot said:

poppy12345 said:

The point we're trying to make is going abroad for a couple of weeks in NOT a change of circumstances that needs reporting. Anyway, i've had my say and i'm out.

That’s what you say, but the government webpages say the complete opposite. So it’s up to whoever is reading this who to trust. I’d follow the guidance that the government gives, not your interpretation.

Okay, let's do that.  ADM C2 deals with habitual residency and presence, including temporary absence from the UK for the purposes of PIP.  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/986155/admc2.pdf

Introduction C2069 C2061
C2056 In certain circumstances a person who is absent from GB can be treated as present. This applies to  four  groups
1.  Claimants  who  are  temporarily  absent
2.  Claimants  who are temporarily  absent  in  order  to  receive  medical treatment abroad
3.  Members of Her Majesty’s forces, aircraft workers  and  mariners
4.  Family  of  Members of Her Majesty’s forces
Note Periods when the claimant is  treated as present  under paragraphs  C2056 to C2068  also count as periods  of  presence for the purpose  of  the  past  presence  test
Meaning of “temporarily absent”
C2057  A claimant is temporarily  absent  if, at  the  beginning  of  the  period  of  absence,  their  absence  is unlikely  to  exceed  52  weeks
1. Temporary absence - Up to 13 weeks   SS (PIP)  Regs, reg 17(2)

C2058 A claimant who is temporarily absent (see  C2056)  from GB shall be treated as present  for the first  13  weeks of absence*.  At the  end  of that  13 weeks, unless helped  by the  EU law provisions  – see C2070 et seq or, exceptionally,  one  of  the  other  absence  rules  described  in  C  2058  to  C2069 applies, the  claimant  will  cease  to  satisfy  the  condition  of  entitlement  to  PIP  that  they  be  present  in  GB. *SS (PIP)  Regs, reg 17(1)

Sure DWP are going to waste their time considering whether they can still pay every single person who goes abroad because they're away for a couple of weeks, because the decision makers absolutely have nothing better to do with their time(!)

A change of circumstances is something that materially affects either your award or the administration of it.  So a change of address or contact details they need to know, because that's where they send your letters and get hold of you if need be.  Going into hospital or prison they need to know, because it affects whether and how much of your award they can pay you (see ADM P4 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/810650/admp4.pdf ) 
But calcotti already said as much

calcotti said:

Charles_Foxtrot said:

The key line in that link you posted:
“Tell the office that deals with your benefit that you’ll be away.”

The issue isn’t whether you’re entitled to the benefits whilst you’re away. It’s whether or not you need to inform the DWP that you will be away. You can’t just keep going away and not tell the agency, this is now explicit in multiple portions of gov.uk websites. 

The government advice is confusing. I agree it says you should tell them if you go abroad and that statement is unambiguous. However when it says "You could be taken to court or have to pay a penalty if you give wrong information or do not report a change in your circumstances" the fact is that being abroad for a couple of weeks is not a relevant change of circumstances so no penalty could be imposed for not telling them.

For ESA it is indeed 4 weeks, or 26 weeks for medical treatment - see ADM C4 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/661494/admc4.pdf

calcotti

Charles_Foxtrot said:I would rather play it safe and follow what the government pages say what to do. 

that's your choice

Spoonie_Turtle

Additional:  ADM A4 has guidance about what is a relevant change of circumstances https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/968051/adma4-10-03-21.pdf

Notification of a change of circumstances
A4151 Beneficiaries and every person by whom, or on whose behalf, sums by way of benefit are receivable are required* to notify the Secretary of State of any change of circumstance which they might reasonably be expected to know might affect
1.continuing entitlement to benefit or
2.the amount of benefit awarded or
3.the payment of benefitas soon as reasonably practicable after the change occurs. In addition there may be benefit specific rules requiring changes to be notified.  *UC, PIP, JSA & ESA (C&P) Regs, reg 38 

And here is the law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/380/regulation/38
(2) Subject to regulation 8 of the Personal Independence Payment Regulations, a person to whom this regulation applies must supply in such manner as the Secretary of State may determine and within the period applicable under regulation 45(4)(a) of the Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker's Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Decisions and Appeals) Regulations 2013 F2 such information or evidence as the Secretary of State may require for determining whether a decision on the award of benefit should be revised under section 9 of the Social Security Act 1998 F3 or superseded under section 10 of that Act.

To none of which going on holiday for a couple of weeks is relevant.

Oh and here's some VERY clear guidance for ESA
https://www.gov.uk/claim-benefits-abroad/illness-injury-benefits

Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)

You can get ESA for up to 4 weeks if you go abroad. Talk to your local Jobcentre Plus before you go.

For PIP,  the award letter clearly states 

Other changes you must tell us about

Please tell us straight away if you:

• Leave or intend to leave the country for more than 4 weeks, even if it is for a holiday

So there we are.  Tell the Jobcentre if you're on ESA and you plan to go abroad; if you're on PIP then DWP only want to know if you're going for more than 4 weeks.

poppy12345

Thanks spoonie! I think we can now be 100% certain that we don't need to tell DWP when we go on holiday for a couple of weeks.

Charles_Foxtrot

I was going by what was on my PIP award letter too, but my letter is dated 2018, it's now 2021. The wording on the government page has changed since since at least six months ago. There isn't 100% certainty on this as we all can see that all sorts of government guidance allude to different things. It is confusing and contradictory... but in plain English on the main page about change of circumstances that I already quoted it can't be any clearer - you must inform. 

Anyway, I see no harm in being safe and letting the DWP if you're going abroad. If you feel safe not doing so, then hey go ahead!

Spoonie_Turtle

If it helps, my award letter is from November 2020.  Definitely not out-of-date

It's all moot for me anyway as it's a struggle enough to go away within the UK as it is, but hopefully it helps anyone else having worries or being unsure.

Charles_Foxtrot

That does help actually - strangely enough when I was researching all of this, it was in November 2020! Back then the government webpages did mention the 28 day thing - but now that I'm looking at going abroad again next year, I found that the wording changed. 
Well if anything, it can't hurt all of us posting the information we find on this thread to inform anybody else in the same situation - it's been quite helpful. 

poppy12345

Charles_Foxtrot said:

 There isn't 100% certainty on this as we all can see that all sorts of government guidance allude to different things. It is confusing and contradictory... but in plain English on the main page about change of circumstances that I already quoted it can't be any clearer - you must inform.

Even with the ADM guide posted by spoonie you still argue....