Brexit, The Economy and House Prices (Part 2)

Conrad

always_sunny wrote: »

I don't believe in a utopian world of let's them all come here, but reality is, folks with a less desirable life will always try to improve it, whether it's Africans crossing the Med is search for better life, or poorer folks within a country trying to become more affluent.

Always strikes me as semi-racist that white people consider black Africans incapable of building their own prosperity and civilisations.

Surely it's better young Africans and nurses stay and build up their nations and help their sick n poor?

Conrad

Herzlos wrote: »

About migrants? Not at all. I just don't by the scaremongering.
Who in their right mind is going to walk across Europe and live in a detention centre for years just to get a better job? Only people with no option.


.

White settlers went to barren lands back in the day and soon built places than went onto to become major civilisations. Even seemingly agreeable America was found to be very difficult to build a life in, invested with swamps and failing crops, but they persevered and built the USA.


Why would Africans not be able to mirror these achievements?


I believe they can, were it not for white do-gooder racists constantly talking their chances down.

kabayiri

Herzlos wrote: »

...
About migrants? Not at all. I just don't by the scaremongering.
Who in their right mind is going to walk across Europe and live in a detention centre for years just to get a better job? Only people with no option.
...

Did they really know they were going to have to walk across Europe? Can you imagine the traffickers telling them this?

If they knew they'd be stuck in tents on the wrong side of the Hungarian border, maybe they'd try a different tack.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Herzlos wrote: »

Have you got a reference to that? It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious as to the context and how they determine it.

*sigh*

UN admits 7 out of 10 migrants crossing the Mediterranean from Libya are NOT refugees as crisis sparks hostility and violence in Italy

http://albertjack.com/2017/07/04/un-finally-admits-70-crossing-med-not-refugees/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4661866/UN-says-migrants-crossing-Libya-NOT-refugees.html

http://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/mediterranean

This from the EU:

The geographic distribution clearly reveals that a majority of irregular migrants rescued in the Central Mediterranean are most likely not refugees in the sense of the Geneva Convention, given that some 70 % come from countries or regions not suffering from violent conflicts or oppressive regimes.

https://ec.europa.eu/epsc/publications/strategic-notes/irregular-migration-central-mediterranean_en


If you want to know "how they determine it" feel free to look yourself, it isn't difficult and TBH I have better things to do.

Herzlos

Ah, that's different to what you claimed. 70% come from countries or regions not suffering from violent conflicts or oppressive regimes is not the same as 70% are economic migrants.

The only ones that jump out as not being from a conflict/oppressive region is Bangladesh and Morocco. I wonder why they are trying to get over here via these routes?

always_sunny

Conrad wrote: »

Always strikes me as semi-racist that white people consider black Africans incapable of building their own prosperity and civilisations.

Surely it's better young Africans and nurses stay and build up their nations and help their sick n poor?

Actually your post strikes me as passive-racists to me.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Herzlos wrote: »

Ah, that's different to what you claimed. 70% come from countries or regions not suffering from violent conflicts or oppressive regimes is not the same as 70% are economic migrants.

The only ones that jump out as not being from a conflict/oppressive region is Bangladesh and Morocco. I wonder why they are trying to get over here via these routes?

Why lie?
What I posted is clearly visible to every reader of this thread.

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

In fact the UN itself says 7 out of 10 are migrants with the remainder being either refugees or asylum seekers.

Now whilst I did indeed mention economic migrants, I did not say that 70% of arrivals were - although they may indeed very well be classified thus.
What I very clearly did say was:

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Next time you look at photographs of your so-called "refugees" in the Med, look at what by far the majority are; they are young and they are male. Economic migrants, not refugees

Again it appears that you alone refuse to accept fact, as described here just to give you some idea:

They include refugees fleeing the turmoil in Syria and Iraq as well as economic migrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/66m-migrants-waiting-cross-europe-africa-report/

More than 181,000 people, most so-called "economic migrants" with little chance of being allowed to stay in Europe, attempted to cross the central Mediterranean last year from Libya

http://uk.businessinsider.com/europe-braces-for-the-next-wave-of-record-levels-of-migrants-and-economic-refugees-2017-1

http://www.newstatesman.com/world/africa/2016/10/defence-africa-s-economic-migrants

always_sunny

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Why lie?
What I posted is clearly visible to every reader of this thread.


Now whilst I did indeed mention economic migrants, I did not say that 70% of arrivals were - although they may indeed very well be classified thus.
What I very clearly did say was:

Again it appears that you alone refuse to accept fact, as described here just to give you some idea:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/66m-migrants-waiting-cross-europe-africa-report/

http://uk.businessinsider.com/europe-braces-for-the-next-wave-of-record-levels-of-migrants-and-economic-refugees-2017-1

http://www.newstatesman.com/world/africa/2016/10/defence-africa-s-economic-migrants

So do you agree with the UN (since you agree that 70% are economic migrants) that the UK should take in more:

Writing in the Times, Gonzalo Vargas Llosa, the UNHCR representative to the UK, said Britain should “do the right thing” to support vulnerable people fleeing persecution from their home country and take in 10,000 more refugees on top of those it has already pledge to resettle.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Related to migration is Macron's proposal for France to set up "hotspots" in Libya to process migrants.
How effective will this be though, since Macron himself admits that many do not have a right to asylum?

President Emmanuel Macron said the move would stop people not eligible for asylum from "taking crazy risks". The centres would be ready "this summer".
He said that between 800,000 and a million people were currently in camps in Libya hoping to get into Europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40738199

This from The Local raised a smile:

The plan appeared to take the EU by surprise but European Commission spokeswoman Natasha Bertaud said the bloc was "open to discussing with any and all of our member states" ways to improve the situation in the Mediterranean.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170727/macron-announces-plans-to-set-up-asylum-checks-in-libya

Time will tell but IMHO turning away a majority that do not qualify as either asylum-seekers or refugees will probably not stop these from attempting entry to the EU by other means.

gfplux

always_sunny wrote: »

Actually as an EU migrant I completely disagree; like you I am not worried one bit because the UK needs to work out.

If the UK doesn't resolve the issue it's going to be stuck with 5% of the population in limbo.
I cannot imagine EU member states' ratifying any EU/UK FTA if the issue with their nationals is not addressed.

Countries outside the EU are looking at the same bargaining chip like "Australia has warned Britain the issue of visas will weigh heavily on the success or failure of trade deal talks."

Quite correct. If ever there were a big, big RED LINE the fate of over 3 million EU national is it.
There is no way the EU can allow itself to cut adrift so many people. Wether it be principle or just weight of numbers.
If Britain condemns those 3 million to limbo there is no way Britain will be able to trade with the 27.
Others have suggested that there are problems that might tear the EU apart. Well this is one issue that could end the EU in a blink of an eye if they were to abandon their own citizens to the mercy of the British Government.