Potential dispute over car not mentioned in father's will

Apodemus

unforeseen wrote: »

It may be worth trying to explain to her that an 80 year old non driver would have very little, if any, hope of getting insurance. Without that as a starter she will only have a rusting hulk on the drive that will need to be SORN'd.

When my father moved into a care home, his car remained at the house. He had given up his licence in his late 80s a year or so before. It was still taxed, MOT'd and insured and with my wife and I named on his insurance it meant we were able to visit by train and use the car when there. I spoke to the insurance company to ask about moving the insurance into my own name and while they were totally relaxed about insuring a non-driver, with me named on his insurance, they would not countenance me insuring the vehicle unless I was the named keeper with DVLA. Seemed a bit strange to me, but the insurance industry often leaves me scratching my head!

Yorkshireman99

Apodemus wrote: »

When my father moved into a care home, his car remained at the house. He had given up his licence in his late 80s a year or so before. It was still taxed, MOT'd and insured and with my wife and I named on his insurance it meant we were able to visit by train and use the car when there. I spoke to the insurance company to ask about moving the insurance into my own name and while they were totally relaxed about insuring a non-driver, with me named on his insurance, they would not countenance me insuring the vehicle unless I was the named keeper with DVLA. Seemed a bit strange to me, but the insurance industry often leaves me scratching my head!

No need to scratch your head. To insure anything you have to have what is known as "an insurable interest" i.e. you have to have a legal interest in the item.

unforeseen

Why would they let you insure something that you had no financial interest in?

They want the insured person to either be the owner or the registered keeper. Ideally both.

Apodemus

unforeseen wrote: »

Why would they let you insure something that you had no financial interest in?

Because the majority of the risk that you cover with car insurance (and the legal requirement bit) is third-party liability not the underlying asset?

Yorkshireman99

Apodemus wrote: »

Because the majority of the risk that you cover with car insurance (and the legal requirement bit) is third-party liability not the underlying asset?

That is not how the law relating to insurance works.

BobRoberts

I have suggested she would benefit from talking to someone or grief counselling, but she bites my head off when I suggest it. When she talks about being depressed, and I suggest she goes to see her GP, she bites my head off. She just seems resistant to any practical thing I suggest.

I realise to people hearing this in the context of my father dying would reasonably attribute his death with her behaviour. But sadly this is not the case - she has been like this for years. She just seems to ruminate on things and complain about the same things over and over and over again. Its long since been beyond insufferable, and for a long time been passed the point where my wife and several others can't believe we are not long since estranged to be honest - it really is that bad.

They did look to move down here a few years ago, but were unable to sell the house. (Plus my Dad didn't really want to move.) And even though my Mum did, I genuinely feel moving from remote Scotland where she has a good network of friends (even if she seems to !!!!! about them behind their back) through the church primarily, and some on my father's side who I know continue to very supportive, would prove difficult in terms of recreating that network and sense of community at her age, and with her particular brand of stubbornness. It literally would be a big culture shock for her if she moved.

She has also talked about sheltered housing where she is, so I'm going to contact social services and explore that - although I assume she would still need to sell the house.

And though she undoubtedly does must miss him, one thing that was very hard last summer was seeing her almost resentful of him being ill. She often seemed more concerned about what her bed and breakfast guests would think, rather than his welfare. Although difficult and unpleasant at times with toilet related incidents due to his lack of mobility, she was nonetheless fit and able to deal with it.

She seemed to think that she should be able to literally ring a care worked to come out to the house and deal with any mess after it had happened. But obviously care help doesn't work like that. She clearly didn't need a live in care helper, but they did have someone going in each morning to help him get up and dressed etc. But she complained about that, as they might not be there if he had an accident. She also ranted at one poor girl about how she wasn't getting care allowance, and the girl refused to go back. Another time we were in the doctor's surgery collecting the death certificate (me, my wife and my mother), waiting in the waiting room, when my Dad's GP walked past, and she quite loudly remarked that he was "a porter who she wouldn't see if he was the last doctor on earth". Or when my dad's social care worker was trying to establish if my Dad needed to get on a list for a care home. On the one hand my Mum would have liked that due to the whole inconvenience, but on the other she didn't want it to use up all of their savings. Even when he explained how it doesn't work like that, she just blanked him, literally turning away from him so he had to just leave the house. And so on and son on. Honestly - she might be my mother, but she is an awful person sadly.

Mojisola

BobRoberts wrote: »

I realise to people hearing this in the context of my father dying would reasonably attribute his death with her behaviour. But sadly this is not the case - she has been like this for years.

She just seems to ruminate on things and complain about the same things over and over and over again.

Its long since been beyond insufferable, and for a long time been passed the point where my wife and several others can't believe we are not long since estranged to be honest - it really is that bad.

You are not alone - there have been several threads on here about narcissistic parents (and other just plain difficult parents).

If you are going to stay in touch, you have to be able to protect yourself from the stress of dealing with someone like this otherwise she will take over your life.

BobRoberts

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

You haven't said how old your mum is, or whether she's always relied on others (presumably your dad) to make decisions and sort things out for her. But you're going to have to make decisions about how much you leave her to do for herself perhaps with some help from you, how much you absolutely refuse to do for her, and how much you let roll over you like water off a duck's back.

And if she's like a cracked record, you could respond the same way. If she goes on about the sheltered housing, work out your response. Either something like "Well Mum, if you haven't been able to find anywhere affordable, I'm not sure what I can do." And then change the subject, repeatedly if necessary. Or "Sorry Mum, there is nothing affordable around here." and then change the subject, repeatedly if necessary. Hanging up if necessary. She'll still make a drama, but you don't have to listen to it.

And I think this is probably true too - that the car is legally your mother's. So the question arises, is she capable of sorting out the SORN and insurance herself? Or does she just prefer not to? My parents would have had great difficulty sorting anything like this without help, because they did not use computers (although mum would do emails). However bottom line, Dad would have got in touch with an insurance broker, and your mum could do the same.

Now, if as you say this is just going to cause you to resent her, then either you have to let it go, or you let your mum go. Sounds as if there's always going to be SOMETHING between you. You have to choose what to do about it.

BTW I think what PasturesNew says is very relevant too.

She turned 80 about two months after my Dad died. She came down to us for a few days, and I drove her up to York for a couple of nights in a hotel. (something we wouldn't have been able to do had I not had the car.) Took her to the fancy afternoon tea at Betty's. Hotel was a pain though, as they had messed up my booking and only reserved one room - and the hotel was full. I'd gone in to check in, and as it was taking longer than it might have, my Mum had obviously gotten impatient and I clocked her coming in, face like thunder. The staff were brilliant, doing what they could to sort something out, but my Mum just came in and was rude and obnoxious to them. They sat us in the corner, got us a coffee and biscuits, said they'd give us complimentary breakfasts, and arranged a regular business man to stay at a nearby hotel so we could both have rooms. So again, just generally being rude and annoying.

Yes - my Dad did all the driving, and all the finances, so I appreciate that's difficult for her. But when we were up we went through everything. My wife sorted everything out into a folder with the latest statements, letters etc, so she could see stuff in there. Basically everything is direct debit, and enough coming in from pensions to cover everything, so she should be OK. Fortunately the next door neighbour is her bank manager, so that's handy too.

One thing she has shouted at me about is changing her from BT, even though I explained several times that I didn't. They were with Orange / EE for the broadband, and only recently got fast broadband where they are. I rang up and got that upgraded (they needed a new modem), but I never cancelled BT or anything. I'm certain the phone and internet was with them. but it got crazy for while - she would ring up and yell at me because her phone didn't work because I was a swine who had cancelled her BT. (Yes, I've wondered about Altzheimers too, but she just will not go to the doctors, because she thinks they did nothing for my Dad, or is worried that once they get you, you end up in hospital and never get out again. yes, she is totally irrational.)

With the conversations, I do still record a lot of them, simply because they are the best record of conveying what she is like. (Only my wife and my Dad's social worker have heard any, and he couldn't believe them, but was glad he heard them so it wasn't 'he said / she said' - he had no doubt which side of any story was the correct version.) And I do hang up on her a lot, but I explain firmly why I am hanging up and say that I will be happy talk to her when she has calmed down and can be more civil.

Sorry, rambling on - she's just a bit of a nightmare all round really.

Getting back to the car - as far as I can gather online, she would need to have someone put themselves forward as a nominated driver for the vehicle. She has said that people have agreed with her that she should have the car, but I suspect if this is true they would be off the cuff remarks of agreement. I might be biased, but I don't believe for a second that any reasonable person would think the best option would be for my mother to keep the car, pay for its upkeep, tax it, and pay for any insurance just so that people could do this:

drive a total of 20 miles per trip into town (5 to her house in their own car, 10 to town and back in my Mum's car, and 5 to get home themselves in their one car)

rather than

drive the same 20 miles per trip into town all in their own car

The cost is basically 10 miles of petrol per trip, and she would probably only really need one trip per week to get bulky shopping. (I've also suggested home deliveries from Tesco, that I could arrange online for bulky stuff once a week, but she didn't want to do that either)

So even two trips per week would be an annual cost of what? Less than £200 in petrol and nominal wear and tear?

There's just no way it could make financial or practical sense for her to keep the car.

I think I'm going to do the following:

- write down all the practical costs of her owning the car.
- let her know that she needs a nominated driver on the insurance.
- if anyone says they are happy to be a nominated driver, get them to read the practical costs stuff
- ask that if they are still happy to be a nominated driver after reading that, then to sign it to that effect and return it to me

I'm assuming that it won't get that far, simply because no reasonable person would agree that my Mum should spend hundreds of pounds a year for, essentially, nothing.

Savvy_Sue

BobRoberts wrote: »

Getting back to the car - as far as I can gather online, she would need to have someone put themselves forward as a nominated driver for the vehicle. She has said that people have agreed with her that she should have the car, but I suspect if this is true they would be off the cuff remarks of agreement. I might be biased, but I don't believe for a second that any reasonable person would think the best option would be for my mother to keep the car, pay for its upkeep, tax it, and pay for any insurance just so that people could do this:

drive a total of 20 miles per trip into town (5 to her house in their own car, 10 to town and back in my Mum's car, and 5 to get home themselves in their one car)

rather than

drive the same 20 miles per trip into town all in their own car

The cost is basically 10 miles of petrol per trip, and she would probably only really need one trip per week to get bulky shopping. (I've also suggested home deliveries from Tesco, that I could arrange online for bulky stuff once a week, but she didn't want to do that either)

So even two trips per week would be an annual cost of what? Less than £200 in petrol and nominal wear and tear?

There's just no way it could make financial or practical sense for her to keep the car.

I think I'm going to do the following:

- write down all the practical costs of her owning the car.
- let her know that she needs a nominated driver on the insurance.
- if anyone says they are happy to be a nominated driver, get them to read the practical costs stuff
- ask that if they are still happy to be a nominated driver after reading that, then to sign it to that effect and return it to me

I'm assuming that it won't get that far, simply because no reasonable person would agree that my Mum should spend hundreds of pounds a year for, essentially, nothing.

You've missed something here: in your Mum's eyes, it will make perfect sense for you to return the car to her, but you be the nominated driver on an 'any driver' policy - although even on one of those you're expected / required to name those who actually DO drive the car, and you won't get an AD policy if you don't name more than one driver.

Then you travel up to her by train, possibly weekly to get her shopping, in her car.

Writing the costs out, writing the difficulties out, MIGHT get through to her, but I'm fairly sure that - in her eyes - you've caused all these problems by taking the car away. If you'd left it where it belonged, everything would have carried on as it did before your Dad died. I know, I know ...

BobRoberts

Unfortunately I don't live close enough Sue. She lives in the Western Isles in Scotland, and I'm in the south of England. Depending on the best air fares (usually around £300) and timings, it can take two days to get there and two days to get home. Because it's so far, I typically stay for a week which always ends up being too long, because it's too stressful as she can't bottle here nasty streak for that long, and she trots out the usual stuff about me not moving there, or me not moving her down to England, and about how if I'd married a nIce island girl I would never have moved away (in here head at least).

So geographically, financially, and in terms of time off work I'm not in a position to drop in once a week to take her shopping.

I don't think it's a case of her thinking I could be a nominated driver on any insurance. It's a case of her just not thinking.

My father is buried between her house and the town 5 miles away. When the headstone went up I asked if she'd been to see it yet. She said she couldn't. I suggested that surely she could if she was getting a lift into town, maybe in a Sunday when there's church.

"Can't do that or we'd be late for Church" she says.

"What about on the way home from Church? It needn't be long, and I'm sure people wouldn't mind."

"But the cemetery is on the wrong side of the road so it's too inconvenient coming back"

Yes, you read that right - she was suggesting that turning right would be too inconvenient compared to turning left.

Honestly - her irrational negativity is truly something.