PIP Refused...Is MR Worth It ?

antrobus

rockingbilly wrote: »

..Why are people so fixated on the descriptors and points awarded?...

Because that's how PIP works.

And it makes sense for would be applicants to read through the table of activities, descriptors and points in order to understand how PIP works. That way, the applicant can make sure that they tick the correct boxes on the PIP, and that they know what information to provide.

This thread is a good example of why applicants should do that; the OP ticked the wrong box on their PIP2 form, because they didn't understand that use of a perching stool qualified as an aid or appliance under the 'Preparing Food' activity, and so got them 2 points. But wants to 'challenge' that decision, and doesn't seem to appreciate that in order to get more points under that activity you have to show that you need 'supervision or assistance'.

I have reached the conclusion that a lot of the problems people have with PIP is precisely because they don't pay sufficient attention to the activities, descriptors and points.

rockingbilly wrote: »

...Surely the best advice is to be totally honest with your answers that you put on the PIP2 and let the Assessor/DWP decide what descriptors you fit and what points should be awarded....

Honesty is always a good thing. But the assessor is going to make a decision anyway.

rockingbilly wrote: »

....It seems to me that the general advice is to complete the PIP2 using the descriptors as a guide ..

Ah, so people do have to pay attention to the descriptors.

rockingbilly wrote: »

...instead of explaining the actual situation that each person finds themselves in....

The PIP2 form has the headline, 'How your disability affects you', so explaining the actual situation that each person finds themselves in, is exactly the whole point of the process.

rockingbilly wrote: »

..I didn't even write anything on my PIP2 nor did I read what had been put there, but I do suspect that what was written down for me mirrored my particular circumstances without any regard as to what the descriptors say.

Nobody else puts anything on your PIP2. Are you confusing it with the HCP report? Or are you saying that somebody else completed the PIP2 on your behalf?

Personally I think the best advice for applicants would be to provide the relevant information on the PIP2 form in writing, and take a copy, rather than write nothing and doing so verbally in the F2F.

NeilCr

Moll wrote: »

NeilCr wrote: »

Okay.

These are the points for preparing food

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/Global/Migrated_Documents/adviceguide/pip-9-table-of-activities-descriptors-and-points.pdf


I Have just found this thread ,I received my PIP form to fill in and was looking for advice, Its all a bit daunting. but many thanks for all the advice on here,
Is there any other place that lists what points you get for answers given to the other questions asked on the form please? Any help would be gratefully appreciated

This is the full list from the CAB site

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/help-with-your-pip-claim/fill-in-form/

And from Benefits and Work

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-points-system

Have you thought about getting help from CAB or a support organisation with the form completion. They'll have experience in how best to do it

rockingbilly

antrobus wrote: »

Because that's how PIP works.

And it makes sense for would be applicants to read through the table of activities, descriptors and points in order to understand how PIP works. That way, the applicant can make sure that they tick the correct boxes on the PIP, and that they know what information to provide.
I agree to try to understand how PIP works, but the boxes on the PIP2 are self explanatory anyhow. You are seemingly suggesting that in the box for further information it is the right thing to 'tailor' your statements in order that they 'fit' the descriptors. Is that being honest with your answers or selecting what/how you answer with regards to the descriptor?

This thread is a good example of why applicants should do that; the OP ticked the wrong box on their PIP2 form, because they didn't understand that use of a perching stool qualified as an aid or appliance under the 'Preparing Food' activity, and so got them 2 points. But wants to 'challenge' that decision, and doesn't seem to appreciate that in order to get more points under that activity you have to show that you need 'supervision or assistance'.

I have reached the conclusion that a lot of the problems people have with PIP is precisely because they don't pay sufficient attention to the activities, descriptors and points.
was that ever the intention when PIP came out? If so, I really do feel for those that have great difficulty in filling in any form and not being able to access professional help. Surely that must have been in the government's mind as it could be said to be a two tier system and discriminatory.


Honesty is always a good thing. But the assessor is going to make a decision anyway.
Based on the truthful answers and not a manipulated claim form.


Ah, so people do have to pay attention to the descriptors.
I was pointing out that it seems to be the general advice to formulate your statements with a view to matching the descriptors which particularly I disagree with.


The PIP2 form has the headline, 'How your disability affects you', so explaining the actual situation that each person finds themselves in, is exactly the whole point of the process.

I agree and I will say it again. Give full honest answers but not ones that are purposely selected to appeal to the assessor/DWP By giving a comprehensive statement surely it is the responsibility of the assessor/DWP to draw the conclusion as to what descriptor is appropriate..

Nobody else puts anything on your PIP2. Are you confusing it with the HCP report? Or are you saying that somebody else completed the PIP2 on your behalf?

Yes, I went to the Jobcentre to get help filling out the PIP2. They filled it out and to be honest I couldn't make head to toe what was put on the form I do know that they insisted that I ask for an assessment at a centre only because they specifically told me what the next step would be. I did ask for an extension of time to get the form back but they only allowed me 7 days whereas the prearranged appointment at Welfare Rights was in 12 days time Thus the extension was still 5 days too short - hence why I had to go to the Jobcentre.

Personally I think the best advice for applicants would be to provide the relevant information on the PIP2 form in writing, and take a copy, rather than write nothing and doing so verbally in the F2F.

Maybe. but it depends how good you are at putting thoughts and words onto paper.

NeilCr

rockingbilly wrote: »

Surely the best advice is to be totally honest with your answers that you put on the PIP2 and let the Assessor/DWP decide what descriptors you fit and what points should be awarded.


I didn't even write anything on my PIP2 nor did I read what had been put there, but I do suspect that what was written down for me mirrored my particular circumstances without any regard as to what the descriptors say.

Ho hum

RockingBilly and honesty

See #75 on this thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72027501#Comment_72027501

Jack_Itin

I have definitely learnt a lesson from the whole PIPs experience, I should have gone to CAB in the first place, despite all the help and advice on these forums I still didn't fill in the form "properly".....I also learnt that what you tell the HCP isn't always what they put down on paper at the F2F......a learning curve indeed....trying to forget about it now for a while, will ring next week to see if they have the MR request, then I expect to wait months for the outcome........thanks to all that helped.......Jack.

NeilCr

Jack_Itin wrote: »

I have definitely learnt a lesson from the whole PIPs experience, I should have gone to CAB in the first place, despite all the help and advice on these forums I still didn't fill in the form "properly".....I also learnt that what you tell the HCP isn't always what they put down on paper at the F2F......a learning curve indeed....trying to forget about it now for a while, will ring next week to see if they have the MR request, then I expect to wait months for the outcome........thanks to all that helped.......Jack.

In my experience MRs don't usually take months Jack - more like weeks. Some can of course

If you don't get the decision overturned and you then decide to appeal - that's when months start to kick in!

Alice_Holt

NeilCr wrote: »

Ho hum

RockingBilly and honesty

See #75 on this thread

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72027501#Comment_72027501

"I didn't even write anything on my PIP2 nor did I read what had been put there....." vs

"I had the DWP fill out the PIP2 for me. Got home and had a look at what he had put and noticed that he had missed off so much info...... so it is being sent back to them and I will be telling them that if there are problems they can blame their own staff."

But remember that Rockingbilly has stated on numerous threads, even a tribunal panel did not consider him credible.
"After my tribunal.. the judge actually told me that my evidence was not credible and neither was I!! ........" https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72101215#Comment_72101215
In my experience it is rare for a tribunal panel to dismiss an appeal on the basis that the appellant's oral evidence was not credible. Normally in a statement of reasons the tribunal explain why they have preferred one set of evidence to another. For a tribunal to describe an appellant as not a credible witness, and dismiss their evidence as a consequence, is unusual.

Alice_Holt

Jack_Itin wrote: »

I have definitely learnt a lesson from the whole PIPs experience, I should have gone to CAB in the first place, despite all the help and advice on these forums I still didn't fill in the form "properly".....I also learnt that what you tell the HCP isn't always what they put down on paper at the F2F......a learning curve indeed....trying to forget about it now for a while, will ring next week to see if they have the MR request, then I expect to wait months for the outcome........thanks to all that helped.......Jack.

Are you getting help from the CAB with your appeal?
Can they refer you to a Benefits Caseworker?

It is possible to win your appeal even with a poor PIP form, but don't expect this at the MR stage.
You will have to take your appeal to tribunal for it to be carefully considered. If you can get help / advice from the CAB with this process, it will increase your chance of success, Jack.

Have you read this guide yet?
http://www.advicenow.org.uk/guides/how-win-pip-appeal
It will answer many of your questions.

NeilCr

Alice_Holt wrote: »

"I didn't even write anything on my PIP2 nor did I read what had been put there....." vs

"I had the DWP fill out the PIP2 for me. Got home and had a look at what he had put and noticed that he had missed off so much info...... so it is being sent back to them and I will be telling them that if there are problems they can blame their own staff."

But remember that Rockingbilly has stated on numerous threads, even a tribunal panel did not consider him credible.
"After my tribunal.. the judge actually told me that my evidence was not credible and neither was I!! ........" https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/72101215#Comment_72101215
In my experience it is rare for a tribunal panel to dismiss an appeal on the basis that the appellant's oral evidence was not credible. Normally in a statement of reasons the tribunal explain why they have preferred one set of evidence to another. For a tribunal to describe an appellant as not a credible witness, and dismiss their evidence as a consequence, is unusual.

Indeed Alice

And in #87 of the thread I cited RockingBilly had this to say

rockingbilly wrote: »

Absolutely and still don't hence why I am working tonight on the form and will post it in the morning. Whilst they said that they would give me 7 extra days I don't trust them to adhere to that if it didn't get to them until after the 5th. It is just a bit of insurance - just in case.

Pretty difficult to work on a form you haven't read!

poppy12345

NeilCr wrote: »

Pretty difficult to work on a form you haven't read!

Now i know why i get completely confused when reading rockingbilly's posts.