Feel guilty I couldn't provide everything for my (immigrant from USA) spouse

Malthusian

The phrase "doesn't suffer fools gladly" comes from St Paul's second letter to the Corinthians, and the full sentence is "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise." The implication when you remark that someone "doesn't suffer fools gladly" is that they are the foolish one.

He definitely wasn't keen on working (are any of us?)

Of course we are. All sentient beings need a purpose in life. We may not find the job we are doing right now to sustain ourselves the most fulfilling purpose, but that doesn't change the basic need.

No-one who is unemployed for 10+ years has any grounds to think of others as fools.

sheramber

Out of interest what degree does he have and what job did he aspire to when he decided on that degree?

McAnniee

TBagpuss wrote: »

I think this may be the crux of the problem. It sounds to me as though you are perhaps the kind of person who is good at problem solving. It's a useful skill to have, but I think there is a danger of seeing *everything* as a problem which it is your responsibility to solve.

There are some things, and I think your ex's difficulty in getting / keeping jobs is one of them, that are not your responsibility to fix, and which may not be fixable. Not least because part of the issue would seem to be your ex's character and that's something only he can change.

I do think that being a foreigner does add a layer of difficulty to things such as finding work, but so do lots of things - I am sure that many of us here have experienced situations where we have been treated unfairly or less favourably for an equally arbitrary reason, but it is not universal - for instance, I've had job interviews where it was clear to me that the fact I am female meant I was never in with a chance, or where the interviewer was pretty clueless. It happens. But it doesn't normally happen every time.

Yeah, I'm a "problem solver" by nature. I'm the kind of person that when friends 'vent' about some situation, I am seeking out and suggesting ways to "solve the problem" rather than just being the listening ear and reserving judgement. In fact I'm terrible at "reserving judgement" most of the time - for any situation, I have an opinion.

And when my H 'vented' about bad bosses or whatever I had solutions but I think he didn't want to hear them. For example there was some working hours issue and I suggested speaking to HR, as he'd already spoken to his manager and got nowhere, and I got the response that (essentially) "speaking to HR is suicide in this company, HR are only there for the managers and not the staff".

Yeah, it didn't happen literally every time as he did get and keep jobs, but did seem like he had more than an average amount of bad bosses / interviewers etc.

McAnniee

Hermia wrote: »

Whenever I see that phrase used to describe someone they are always someone who has little patience with others and thinks themselves better than others!

I still am utterly baffled by your belief that you should have taken responsibility for everything because he was a 'guest'. Have you actually spoken to other immigrants? I have many immigrants/emmigrants amongst the people I know and none believe this. Even my friend who moved to Japan (a very difficult country for foreigners to get their heads round) tried to lean on his Japanese wife as little as possible and integrate as quickly as possible.

I also don't understand why you are hung up on the interview situation. People get rejected for jobs for dumb reasons all the time. It happens to Brits. It happens to Americans over in America. It is just life. That is why applying for jobs is a numbers game. I really can't imagine he encountered this situation more than the rest of us.

BTW, do you think he is sitting around endlessly worrying about what he did wrong and whether he could have worked on the marriage/life more? If not, why are you? I do think you need to think about this because you could easily get stuck in this cycle again. If you next OH has any failings or insecurities are you going to be blaming yourself for not fixing everything?

I would describe myself as "doesn't suffer fools" as well, really, and acknowledge I have little patience with others and perhaps even look down on them. You are right about that. (Although it seems like I may have been using the phrase "doesn't suffer fools" wrongly as a subsequent poster wrote? You learn something every day! :beer: I just got the phrase from others, and started using it!)

I know a fair number of immigrants socially and professionally although not many (only 1, in fact, and one UK-based husband of a US immigrant but I only knew him and not her) from America. We didn't get involved in expat communities and things like that. I suppose my feeling about a "guest" is that when you already have an established life in a country (UK), invite someone to come and live with you in that country, that you have some obligation to provide and take care of things, rather than just cast them adrift as a totally unsupported "floater".

Is he sitting around worrying? - no. We have spoken many times and he's fully happy with the situation and has no regrets but realised it was time to move on. Although he has a fairly severe lack of self awareness so I wouldn't be surprised if some situation of 'angst' was upcoming in the future.!

McAnniee

Spendless wrote: »

Many factory, warehouse, call centre and even some retail job (Sports Direct anyone??) are indeed kr@ppy. I temp somewhere that I don't rate as an employer. If that is all you can find then that might be down to the local job market. Or it could be down to you never taking qualifications, asking for more responsibilities, extra training or anything that would make you move on from the 'kr@ppy' position. It is highly unlikely to be because 'you're an American'

I don't want to post where I am exactly for obvious reasons; but there are many opportunities in our large town and especially if able to drive to other towns (10, 15, 20 mile radius or so) where those jobs are.

I live right on top of a huge industrial estate with factory/warehouse/etc type jobs being the bulk of people employed by those companies. I'm afraid agencies are the barrier rather than the companies themselves, as the agencies can often be quite 'snooty' and dismiss even relevant experience etc. if the face doesn't fit. (those companies mostly recruit through agencies rather than direct)

I came across a situation where someone (not my H, but someone he knew) was doing a minimum wage level job but was offered the chance to take on a new post with the same company with more responsibility and more knowledge needed and so on, but for the same wage. If this was my H should he have taken on that "opportunity"? Although the company was obviously taking the P? (I'm genuinely asking. I don't know whether I would or not in that situation!)

In general with those types of jobs there aren't the opportunities to "ask" for extra training and so on. Your job is whatever the supervisor screams at you that day!

McAnniee

justme111 wrote: »

Do you by any chance feel you are guilty because of many little things you do not list on here? Like for example complaining that the buck stops with you and he can afford to to not have a job but you can not? Are you questioning yourself as deep down you know you looked at him with disappointment in your eyes?
That would be another topic and a very complicated one and one which we would be unable to help as there are so many nuances in how relationship develops..
So in response to your question as you formulated it you know it is resounding "no" (" I would rather be lifelong single than with a man I had to "provide for", I feel like puking when I think of it) but could it be that the main question is not the one you written?
In any case you both better off with other people; dare I say it likely to do him good to be responsible for someone and that is why he has chosen her very likely- self preservation instinct - and you have somewhere someone you could rely on instead of feeling shortchanged by being 'the provider".
Btw I was single for a long time and however much my singletood was getting me down I would not even consider someone who does not like the job he does/does not have a passion and grit. If you like your job you better look for similar mindset people, otherwise it is likely to be difficult
PS. Someone in the thread mentioned it is disrespectful to look at a person (let alone a man) as if their failings and achievements were our responsibility. You did not reply to that. You did not reply to some other posts. I supose it is because it is not as easy as replying to posts about children or infidelity. I am with hermia and tbgpuss - you look disrespectful to your man in assuming that responsibility and in danger of it repeating itself.

Can you elaborate a bit, @JustMe111, as I feel like you are getting at something that resonates with me here, but I can't quite understand fully yet.

It is really interesting that you say it's "likely to do him good to be responsible for someone and that is why he has chosen her very likely" Do you think there's a (possibly unconscious) rebellion against the 'being supported' then?

What I know for a fact is he has a few people in his past who were... "basket cases" for want of a better word! People in need of support, vulnerable, etc. (Not just relationships.. friends etc as well) And he took on the "provider" role then.

McAnniee

Malthusian wrote: »

The phrase "doesn't suffer fools gladly" comes from St Paul's second letter to the Corinthians, and the full sentence is "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise." The implication when you remark that someone "doesn't suffer fools gladly" is that they are the foolish one..

OK, I googled it after you posted this and you are absolutely right! (I'm not particularly religious so didn't know the 2 Corinthians reference) I've been (mis)using the "doesn't suffer fools" wording after seeing it written elsewhere all these years to mean someone who is (often vocally) intolerant of stupid people.

Malthusian wrote: »

Of course we are. All sentient beings need a purpose in life. We may not find the job we are doing right now to sustain ourselves the most fulfilling purpose, but that doesn't change the basic need.

No-one who is unemployed for 10+ years has any grounds to think of others as fools.

I totally understand that everyone needs a purpose in life - I certainly do (and start to go "up the walls" after more than a few days off?!) - but - most people's aspiration in life isn't (something like) To work and generate profit for a company whilst being paid minimally myself and putting up with *** from managers for the "greater good". I think that many peoples "internal" sense of work and doing something purposeful is more internally driven than "whatever new initiative the Team Leader came up with this week".

McAnniee

NBLondon wrote: »

But if you want the job - you may have to hide that. Letting them know you think they're an idiot doesn't work. Didn't you say your husband lacked social skills?

Yes - he's very socially inept in many ways. I gave coaching, and offered up other resources about "how to do well in interviews" and things like that. Websites, books, my experience, etc. We role played "difficult" interviews (with me as the difficult interviewer) a couple of times. He was willing, but struggled I think to truly take it in.

I'm great at interviews myself; once I've got through to the interview stage I can almost certainly convince the Hiring Manager to hire me (The only interview I've not had a job offer from was an Internal Interview with extensive politics behind it which I found out later - all other interviews have resulted in offers!), so I had many things I could share. Although I don't know if he took them in. I think he was listening, but couldn't "internalise" that info.

NBLondon wrote: »

Unless English is not his first language... a college grad from the US should be capable of working this out; finding books on interview technique, reading the leaflets from govt departments (which have been written exceedingly simply for the last 20 years at least). Maybe in the first year if he doesn't twig that an NI Number is what they call a Social Security Number or something. But not for 17 years! Sorry, McAnnie, but it sounds like you've been an enabler too long; making excuses and possibly letting him fall into the mindset of victim.

English is his first language, yes. We went through all the interview techniques etc, but, it's almost like he couldn't overcome or accept the need to deal with "stupid people" etc but it wasn't out of a sense of entitlement or snobbery, but rather idealism and naivet!.

McAnniee

sheramber wrote: »

Out of interest what degree does he have and what job did he aspire to when he decided on that degree?

History.

He didn't have a specific job in mind, but rather embarked on the degree initially because of a thirst for knowledge and stuck with it because of the "need a degree, subject is not as important as just having the degree" threshold of many jobs requiring a 'Graduate with 2:1 or higher' or such like.

Obviously there are some jobs where a History degree is specifically required (I assume!). But there are many more that require 'a degree', possibly specified to be in an Arts subject, and so on.

justme111

Not sure I would call it "rebellion", rather getting out of relationship where he was not respected and admired to protect his right to be who he was and keep self respect. Men wilt when they do not feel approval from their women. "Training" someone for interviews, telling them "do this, do that" do not look like most afrodisiac actions. Even now in your arrogance you feel you were responsible to maintain him - I do not know any men for whom idea of being maintained by his woman would sound appealing. You with your immediate offers of solutions to people and overall attitude do not look understanding, wise, open minded, tolerant and respectful. You appear to be hard working, intelligent, intense, self critical person. Humility may be an alien concept to you. But then you demand the same from others, let me guess - you disrespect weakness and people are different.. You liked him for being different but then you could not tolerate those differences. Not sure there is anything wrong with it. In short - you were not good for each other in the long run. Do not beat yourself up for it.