Electric cars

Herzlos

Even then the EV is usually closer in price and spec to the top end ICE models, rather than the base models.

NBLondon

DrEskimo wrote: »

Can't see the article as behind a paywall, but I'm guessing they are just looking at the list price difference and saying it would take X months to make up the difference in fuel savings?

Pretty much.

It's the difference in depreciation costs that's important.

Only if you are intending to sell on after a pre-planned period. Which is likely to be a factor as more and more people move to PCP or PCH or other schmes - the GFV comes into play.

gzoom wrote: »

I bet they didn't actually compare like for like.

A bit hit and miss I thought - there aren't many cases where you can compare an EV and an ICE version of the very same car. E Golf versus diesel Golf was the closest they could go for. Then Kia Nero with diesel Sportage. However they compared BMW i3 with BMW 118D which are not really the same size and Jaguar I-Pace with diesel E-Pace which are not quite the same sector. Interesting that they also compared an aftermarket electric conversion of a VW Tramsporter with the diesel version - but not as a tradesperson's workhorse, as a way of getting your surfboards and mountain bikes to the wilderness.

They did show the difference in 0-60 times which is surprising in many cases and usefully the time to charge from 30% to 100%

DrEskimo

NBLondon wrote: »

Pretty much.

Only if you are intending to sell on after a pre-planned period. Which is likely to be a factor as more and more people move to PCP or PCH or other schmes - the GFV comes into play.

Indeed.

Guess what I was trying to say was that if you keep the car for many years, then you will see that initial outlay back in servicing and fuel costs. Suggesting that you won't see it back in the short term is misleading though, as if you only keep it for the short-term then it's the difference in depreciation costs. So whether it's short term or long term, the chances are you will only see a very small difference in total cost of ownership (or even a saving if the used market stays as strong as it is now).

DrEskimo

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

Maybe, but it doesn't stand even basic scrutiny.

If it was the case that they had no idea of the make & models then there'd be little or no confidence in the categorisation of sales ... for example, without knowing the vehicle model being analysed there's absolutely no way to allocate the category correctly, however it's pretty obvious that the registrations of BEVs has increased significantly, therefore it's either a pure guess (which raises questions on SMMT data integrity!) or the make, model & variant is actually known, in which case inclusion of Tesla sales as 'other' is unwarranted ... whichever is the case, the SMMT is seemingly withholding information for some reason or other ...

Now, moving on to data sources .... the SMMT has access to manufacturing & registration data from various sources ... presumably the registration analysis results from anonymised data sourced from the UK's official vehicle registration authority, which would include make, model, variant & colour for the vehicle & registration information to allow ownership analysis (business. private, fleet etc) .... the alternative being guesswork which would lead to inaccurate analysis, but yet they seem to be able to have a degree of confidence in the accuracy of both their new & used vehicle sectoral analysis, which tends to reinforce the point made previously ...

Considering analysis by region - maybe this is an 'apparent' issue which is related to the Tesla sales model being centralised as opposed to being through dealerships, however, the same distribution & registration model actually exists elsewhere within the analysis, which if it were to be the case would invalidate the whole dataset & resultant analysis .... yes, direct fleet sales & manufacturer fleet lease & centralised operation schemes would actually skew regional analysis to exactly the same degree, especially so in the commercial vehicle sector - but that seems to cause no problems! ....

... haven't come across any logical reasoning for excluding a marque & individual platforms from the analysis yet & it's not as if this is the first month that sales have happened or sales are insignificantly low to warrant measure as we're considering the 3rd highest selling model in the UK last month, so it's not really a typical 'tin-foil-hat' position to take to question why they can correctly segment, classify & analyse the data they have, yet somehow 'forget' to create detail line items for one particular brand! ....

Odd really! ... I wonder whether they'll look to rectify their ongoing 'error' soon!

HTH
Z

I think you may be reading into this a bit too much....

It's pretty clear from numerous articles that Tesla don't publish regional sales of their individual models. This is true across all country sales.

As such, my guess is that SMMT merely have 3 numbers and a total, with no indication of which model is which. Differentiating between Model S and X (particularly over time) would but near impossible, but when one number sticks out as much as the Model 3 number for August (and probably for the next few months), it's pretty obvious to deduce which model it is!

Martyn1981

DrEskimo wrote: »

I think you may be reading into this a bit too much....

It's pretty clear from numerous articles that Tesla don't publish regional sales of their individual models. This is true across all country sales.

As such, my guess is that SMMT merely have 3 numbers and a total, with no indication of which model is which. Differentiating between Model S and X (particularly over time) would but near impossible, but when one number sticks out as much as the Model 3 number for August (and probably for the next few months), it's pretty obvious to deduce which model it is!

Not sure about that. If you check their website the table for August sales has an 'other imports' figure of 2,293, which is obviously bigger than 2,082 and could include all Tesla cars, since the table we've been looking at is per model not marque. If the 2,293 is just Tesla, then they seem able to break it down.

Now, a perfectly fair argument is that 'other imports' includes more than just Tesla, OK. But the August figures and year to date charts then raise another question, why doesn't Tesla appear at all? But other brands with total sales this year as low as 55 or 126 appear, (and August sales as low as 12) but Tesla with what looks like 5k+ is just 'other imports'?

TBF this isn't that important, and just reflects badly on the SMMT, who will have to give in and get on with it soon, but it has made 'international' news as I've seen it joked about on sites like Tesla Time News already.

gfplux

A “big” announcement from VW

https://luxtimes.lu/european-union/38405-vw-unveils-new-logo-affordable-electric-cars-in-show-of-new-era

I wonder how affordable?

NBLondon

DrEskimo wrote: »

Indeed.

Guess what I was trying to say was that if you keep the car for many years, then you will see that initial outlay back in servicing and fuel costs. Suggesting that you won't see it back in the short term is misleading though, as if you only keep it for the short-term then it's the difference in depreciation costs. So whether it's short term or long term, the chances are you will only see a very small difference in total cost of ownership (or even a saving if the used market stays as strong as it is now).

I think you're probably right Doc... but it seems many people don't calculate TCO. Some just do the simple sum of (EV price - ICE price)/fuel savings = no. of years to break even and don't factor in maintenance. Others just do the "how much per year in payments" plus "how much per year in fuel" /12 and can they afford that. I have never really bothered about depreciation or re-sale value because I don't have a planned timescale for changing cars - it's always been a mix of "Do I want something different?" when I was young and single or "Have my needs or circumstances changed?" as I've got older.

AdrianC

gfplux wrote: »

A “big” announcement from VW

https://luxtimes.lu/european-union/38405-vw-unveils-new-logo-affordable-electric-cars-in-show-of-new-era

I wonder how affordable?

It's just the ID3, nothing new. They've been talking about matching the price of a diesel Golf.

All 30,000 "launch edition" have been pre-ordered, with production starting November and RHD deliveries starting next summer.

DrEskimo

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Not sure about that. If you check their website the table for August sales has an 'other imports' figure of 2,293, which is obviously bigger than 2,082 and could include all Tesla cars, since the table we've been looking at is per model not marque. If the 2,293 is just Tesla, then they seem able to break it down.

Now, a perfectly fair argument is that 'other imports' includes more than just Tesla, OK. But the August figures and year to date charts then raise another question, why doesn't Tesla appear at all? But other brands with total sales this year as low as 55 or 126 appear, (and August sales as low as 12) but Tesla with what looks like 5k+ is just 'other imports'?

TBF this isn't that important, and just reflects badly on the SMMT, who will have to give in and get on with it soon, but it has made 'international' news as I've seen it joked about on sites like Tesla Time News already.

Agreed. I don't know why Tesla's total sales aren't listed in the brand breakdown.

Believe Tesla became a member of SMMT in 2009, so it's not clear. It would just seem to me that this is more likely to be down to Tesla's policies regarding regional sales and their individual models, rather than some petty 'dig' by SMMT due to the fact they are the only BEV exclusive manufacturer.....

Could be wrong!

AdrianC

DrEskimo wrote: »

Agreed. I don't know why Tesla's total sales aren't listed in the brand breakdown.

Believe Tesla became a member of SMMT in 2009, so it's not clear. It would just seem to me that this is more likely to be down to Tesla's policies regarding regional sales and their individual models, rather than some petty 'dig' by SMMT due to the fact they are the only BEV exclusive manufacturer.....

Could be wrong!

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/tesla-model-3-third-most-popular-car-in-uk-august/
Sunday Times:

According to figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, which represents the British motor industry, 2,082 vehicles registered last month were listed as “Other”. When asked what “Other” meant, an SMMT spokesperson told Driving.co.uk: “As the manufacturer chooses not to publish figures, we have to list it as ‘Other’”.

As Tesla is known not to publish its sales figures, Driving.co.uk contacted the company for comment. A spokesperson said: “While we don’t comment on sales figures, if you were to say Tesla Model 3 [was the car listed as “Other” by the SMMT], that wouldn’t be incorrect”.

By that, the Model 3 got 2/3 of UK BEV sales for August, 1.1% of the market as a whole. Deliveries began in late June, so we're still firmly on pre-reservation demand.