Electric cars

Herzlos

NBLondon wrote: »

Hang on... swapping battery packs is going to vary depending on use.

Very much so, some will be easier than others.

For an agricultural setting - two batteries (one in use one on charge) where you can swap the same battery pack from ditch digger to plough to muck spreader depending on that day's job and you've got an (electric?) tele-handler in the yard to swap it over.

Yup, that ones pretty easy, and would likely need a tele-handler due to the weight.

But we were talking about a remote site - changing the battery pack in the mini-digger at lunchtime. If you need another piece of equipment to do that - it slows down the process. Perhaps you need the engine hoist sized crane on the back of the pickup that delivers the spares - if two crew can swap over in 10 to 15 minutes; it will work. More than that - maybe not.

That depends on how heavy the battery is, whether it's a single unit, and how it's configured.
Google tells me that JCB has a 19.8kwh battery (as the heavier 4-pack option) and that a 20kwh li-ion battery weighs about 200kg. You'd probably need some kind of lift/loader trolley but it wouldn't need to be truck mounted (it could be mounted on the trailer the digger came to site on).
However, if that battery was 4 removable units, you're down to 50kg each which should be easily manageable for a 2-man crew to change in a 10 minute period. Make it 8 cartridges and you could have 1 man do it.
Splitting it like that means you probably don't even need to swap all 8 of them - just the flat ones, and you can use the same cartridges in different scales of equipment - 4 in the mini digger, 8 in the bigger one and so on.


The working model and usage will catch up to the technology, there are specialist tools to do all sorts of jobs that make life easier, and I'm sure people will manage to do something that saves a lot of money over lifetime.

How about electric forklifts or scissor lifts in a large warehouse or timber yard. Run all day and charge at night is already here. A smaller and lighter version which needs to change battery pack at lunchtime means it has to be feasible for one operator to make that change.

Exactly. Replaceable battery packs means it can run all day and night, with a battery change with each shift.


Battery powered stuff is the future.

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

20kWh/150kg is replacing a 70kg diesel in those little minidiggers. Those diesel engines never need replacing.

No but they need servicing, and the diesel needs to come from somewhere, plus all of the additional guff you need now to avoid spills going into the ground.

Anyway, we're talking about the much bigger kit. So a minimum of, say, 100kWh battery. Yes, it could be 5 x 20kWh packs. Either way, they've got to be removed, loaded into a wagon, back to base, charged, back to site, refitted. Every night.

So you're talking about 750kg of battery packs. Easily done for a tele-handler. They only need to be taken to the nearest suitable charging point, and as I said I can't imagine many sites aren't near some power. Worst case they'd need to go on a truck back to a depot.
But the wonderful thing is you can put *other* batteries back in it, so the truck taking the batteries back to a depot could drop off a new set or 3.

Or a bowser of diesel as needed.

Which has it's own problems.

Then you've got the power requirement for the base. Say a dozen machines recharging 100kWh packs overnight. I make that 250A at 415v. Big cable...

Are there many sites outside things like quarries running a dozen 100kwh machines on a daily basis?

And that's before we consider that a lot of plant is hired, rather than owned. Who's installing that big fat charge cable, and what charger?

No reason the batteries couldn't be hired either, with charging being part of the contract. Remember, in the not too distant future there will be more charging infrastructure so less distance needed to travel to fast recharge things.

That gives two to three hours use in a big brushcutter. Buy tool, battery and the fastest charger (nearly 3hrs for that big pack), and it's about 60-70% more than the equivalent four-stroke brushcutter.

Yup, it's a bit more expensive, but it doesn't need four-stroke so will recoup the money if you use it often enough.

I've been looking at a pole pruner and long-reach hedge trimmer lately. Quality-for-quality, you're looking at about 25-50% more by the time you've bought battery pack and charger. Future tools would be cheaper, sure, but only if you accept the manufacturer lock-in.

Sounds pretty reasonable for me. I'd pay that so I didn't need to much about with petrol, fetching and storing the petrol instead of just plugging it in.


For remote stuff, you can even charge things like that from the vehicle you came in (some of the EV Pick-ups come with power sockets for site tools already), or from other bits of equipment. You can't do that with 2/4 stroke since the truck is almost certainly diesel and with anti-syphon devices.


You're looking for problems that don't really exist, instead of looking for the new possibilities electrification provides.

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

Google tells me that JCB has a 19.8kwh battery (as the heavier 4-pack option) and that a 20kwh li-ion battery weighs about 200kg. You'd probably need some kind of lift/loader trolley but it wouldn't need to be truck mounted (it could be mounted on the trailer the digger came to site on).

At which point, you start hitting towing weight limits.

Many crewcab 4x4 pickups are only 2.8t towing limit, with nothing above the 3.5t breakpoint where things get a LOT harder. You've got the thick end of 2t on top of the trailer already, and the trailer itself's ~750kg

Even if you've got 3.5t towing capacity, start to lob much in the back of the pickup or van and you're at risk of hitting GTW.

Exactly. Replaceable battery packs means it can run all day and night, with a battery change with each shift.

At which point, it'll then do what can already be done easily.

zeupater

NBLondon wrote: »

Hang on... swapping battery packs is going to vary depending on use.

For an agricultural setting - two batteries (one in use one on charge) where you can swap the same battery pack from ditch digger to plough to muck spreader depending on that day's job and you've got an (electric?) tele-handler in the yard to swap it over.

But we were talking about a remote site - changing the battery pack in the mini-digger at lunchtime. If you need another piece of equipment to do that - it slows down the process. Perhaps you need the engine hoist sized crane on the back of the pickup that delivers the spares - if two crew can swap over in 10 to 15 minutes; it will work. More than that - maybe not.

How about electric forklifts or scissor lifts in a large warehouse or timber yard. Run all day and charge at night is already here. A smaller and lighter version which needs to change battery pack at lunchtime means it has to be feasible for one operator to make that change.

Hi

If that's a reply to my comment then consider the context in which it was made ....

The equipment in discussion was at the ~30tonne excavation end of the spectrum in situations where there'd either be a 3 phase supply already in place because the site is industrial & static (eg quarry etc) or there's a temporary need to use heavy equipment in a remote location (construction etc) where swapping power packs wouldn't be a major issue, especially so if the solution was to pair with a rough terrain forklift or equipping the excavator with hoist equipment ....

What we shouldn't do is take the thread off at a tangent, all that needs to be realised within context of excavators is that the 200bhp diesel powerpack on large units as raised as a form of proof that electricity wasn't a viable option because it needs a 'chuffin' big battery' is flawed on a number of fronts ...

- 200bhp pretty much overstates the power requirement by almost x2 ....
- 200bhp is less than half of the power delivery capacity of a number of current EVs ....
- current EVs of equivalent size to ICEVs tend to hide their 'chuffin' big battery' packs in places where they can't even be seen ...
- even with a 'chuffin' big battery' the kerbside weight of an EV roughly equates to an equivalent size ICEV (TM3 vs BMW3 both in 1.5-2tonne range) ...

Effectively, there's no technical reason to suggest that an electrified excavator of any reasonable commercial size would be impossible, but that's not the issue. What's happened is simply the latest in a series of taking reasonable examples to an extreme as a form of unsupported (/unsupportable!) proof that hydrocarbon based power provides a better solution than electrons wrapped up in a thinly disguised smoke & mirrors ploy! ...

HTH
Z

gfplux

Porsche Taycan launched yesterday. Delivery next year.

https://luxtimes.lu/world/38357-porsche-unveils-its-first-ever-electric-car

Herzlos

AdrianC wrote: »

At which point, you start hitting towing weight limits.



Many crewcab 4x4 pickups are only 2.8t towing limit, with nothing above the 3.5t breakpoint where things get a LOT harder. You've got the thick end of 2t on top of the trailer already, and the trailer itself's ~750kg

The electric JCB (with the 150kg battery, according to you) weighs in at 1827 for transport. Going by the spec sheet it'll need something the size of an Ifor GH94 which only weighs 500kg (https://www.iwt.co.uk/products/plant/gh-plant/?tab=spec#tab) which means you're only sitting at 2227kg. Got nearly 500kg extra weight on that 2700kg trailer which would net you some extra buckets and spare batteries/battery loader.


edit: a lifting arm to do the loading would be around 50kg https://www.amazon.co.uk/907kg-Capacity-Pickup-Swivel-Workshop/dp/B0714J43LD

Even if you've got 3.5t towing capacity, start to lob much in the back of the pickup or van and you're at risk of hitting GTW.

Always a risk with heavy plant, and it definitely becomes harder when the pickup/van also has a lot of batteries in it. I'm not sure how we'll deal with that except maybe moving things up into the C1 category with a 7500kg limit.

At which point, it'll then do what can already be done easily.

But without using fossil fuels. Brilliant, eh?

AdrianC

zeupater wrote: »

What we shouldn't do is take the thread off at a tangent

Agreed. I'm perfectly happy to let the subthread drop.

all that needs to be realised within context of excavators is that the 200bhp diesel powerpack on large units as raised as a form of proof that electricity wasn't a viable option because it's need 'chuffin' big battery' is flawed on a number of fronts ...

- 200bhp pretty much overstates the power requirement by almost x2 ....
- 200bhp is less than half of the power delivery capacity of a number of current EVs ....

https://www.casece.com/emea/en-eu/products/excavators/crawler-excavators/models/cx300d

And, of course, industrial/commercial diesels are nothing like car diesels. They're much larger capacity, much higher torque, much lower revving. Your typical 38t Merc artic has similar horsepower to an S-class. But you certainly couldn't use the S-class engine in the artic... If Case could get away with fitting something like a 2.0 car diesel in there, don't you think they would, instead of a 7.8 litre truck lump?

AdrianC

And, returning to the subject...

The SMMT have released August 2019 new car reg figures.
https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

Herzlos

Mild Hybrid is a non-plug-in or self-charging?

AdrianC

Herzlos wrote: »

Mild Hybrid is a non-plug-in or self-charging?

Stuff like...
https://www.ford.co.uk/shop/research/hybrid-electric/mild-hybrid
Several manufacturers have them - Kia Sportage EcoDynamics+, etc, etc.

Basically, a little bit of a power boost, and stop-start-plus-a-bit.

Not a new concept - Honda's Civic IMA reached showrooms in the mid 00s, Citroen's Xsara Dynalto didn't back in the late 90s