Don't be a 2016 Remoaner - voting Brexit was our finest hour

HornetSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Perhaps it's nothing to do with money but quality of life, identity and culture. People have far more material things than they ever have had. The ability to travel anywhere around the world. Don't seem any happier though. Just moan more. After several decades of globalisation. Perhaps there's a sea change of opinion. As to what really matters in life for the average man on the street. Tired of the alright jack mentality that pervades through society. As the wealth gulf grows ever wider.

(I find it bizarre that three people so far have given a thumbs up a comment which, while well made, is clearly contradictory).

You said, specifically, that nothing was going to change for the vast majority of people. I questioned, specifically, why bother if nothing was going to change. You reply by saying that a lot is going to change, just not monetarily.

I'm not necessarily trying to demean your follow-up point - I basically made exactly the same point in why I thought Brexit appealed to so many people. But the two posts you have made seem mutually exclusive to me. Either things will change significantly for a lot of people, or they will not.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

BobQ wrote: »

Out of interest, how long into the future do you believe that those who still believe in the remain cause should have to wait before they are allowed to advocate that UK should be in the EU (not leave/rejoin) ?

One year? Two years? When we have finally left? Ten years? Twenty years?

What makes you think that there will still BE an EU by then?
Almost certainly whatever EU there is will be a different beast to that which currently exists.

As for:

BobQ wrote: »

I agree it is time to move on.

Unfortunately many on the winning side of the referendum seem to want to continue using abusive terms (like those used above). They see any comments about the future that do not show unqualified support for Brexit as heretical and call them undemocratic. There is no democracy that requires undying support from the vanquished for the views of the majority.

If you really do feel that it is time to move on (Hallelujah) then please do, and cease the diatribes yourself.
There has been a thread in these forums about those found to be most abusive - and the majority opinion was that the largest perpetrators were certain remain supporters.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5574524

If you dislike seeing suggestions for a descriptive name such as mine for a certain faction of remain supporters, I must assume that you also dislike similar names for leave supporters (one ending in "tard" in particular)?
Together with (as has been said) the implications that leave supporters are somehow less-intelligent/ ill-educated etc. etc.etc.

I have seen little to suggest that all positivity post-referendum is "unqualified support" for brexit as you suggest.
Indeed this positivity is most often in response to the continuation of "project fear"-type predictions of impending disaster - which btw are certainly not evident from recent predictions in economic growth for example, which are having to be continually increased.

So it really does seem that (apart from perhaps the very smallest number of posters) this "undying support" of which you speak comes in fact from those who voted to remain but are unwilling to move on.

As I say in a post above but will put it here more bluntly so that you may clearly comprehend:
If I see obvious untruth posted I will respond with verifiable truth.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

michaels wrote: »

If we had voted remain would brexiteers be trying to achieve brexit against the will of the people through parliament and the courts?

And would those remain voters have been equally indignant at the lack of respect for the democratic process in the UK?

lisyloo

michaels wrote: »

If we had voted remain would brexiteers be trying to achieve brexit against the will of the people through parliament and the courts?

Is anyone trying to remain?
those who brought the court case want brexit done properly.

Thrugelmir

HornetSaver wrote: »

Either things will change significantly for a lot of people, or they will not.

Many people have experienced declining incomes over the past 10/20 years. Perhaps in their eyes the EU has been of no benefit to them personally. In fact a failure. Doesn't mean things are going to get dramatically better either. Just different.

Perhaps some people care about others as much as themselves. Far easier to control matters at a decentralised local level. Than from afar by an autonomous unelected body. That holds very differing views.

ukcarper

michaels wrote: »

If we had voted remain would brexiteers be trying to achieve brexit against the will of the people through parliament and the courts?

Probably. .

HornetSaver

Shaka_Zulu wrote: »

Brexit bonanza as FTSE 100 hits all-time HIGH flying in the face of doom-mongers.

Share prices do tend to rise when takeovers are anticipated, to be fair.

Irrespective of politics, in the period between the referendum and the start of negotiations with the EU, most people would have expected the stock market to be volatile (a lot of day-to-day movement as the perception of what was happening changed, irrespective of whether the underlying longer term trend was up, flat or down). I suspect a lot of the movement in recent weeks has to do with the fact that the second of this year's political earthquakes leaves the UK and US with more mutual interests than most people would have anticipated. It could equally be that my flippant link above is an accurate characterisation, or it could indeed be that global investors are genuinely excited about Brexit and see UK companies as better investments for it.

Who knows?

The only thing we can say with certainty is that stock prices have risen significantly in the last six months. Why, what's causing it, what it indicates, how stable those levels are, whether they go up or down after XYZ happen, are all million dollar questions. If anyone really knew the answers to them, we wouldn't be talking about April Fool's Day 2019 as the date of leaving the EU. We'd already have left.

Thrugelmir

HornetSaver wrote: »

Share prices do tend to rise when takeovers are anticipated, to be fair.

What's Amazon being doing for the past 20 years?

Other than strangling the life out of other businesses.

HornetSaver

Thrugelmir wrote: »

What's Amazon being doing for the past 20 years?

Other than strangling the life out of other businesses.

My point is that someone who is unquestionably a key part of the Trump administration - the person the most business-centric president ever has put in charge of commerce - is pointing out the opportunites for business to be taken from the UK as a direct result of Brexit. That doesn't make him any more likely to be correct than anyone else, but he certainly can't be accused of having a liberal, Europhile agenda. He's simply saying it as he sees it, and I'm simply pointing out that it's one of several plausible reasons as to why stock prices might be rising, against the expectations of everyone including Leave voters (who would have expected any surge to come after we actually left).

As a side note, Amazon's share growth has been sustained over approximately 15 years in correlation with its sales growth, in confident anticipation of the sorts of numbers they are now posting. In approximately that timeframe there has never been a question of it being taken over. It seems a very strange comparison to make to the current state of the UK stock market (unless, after six months of the Government playing its cards very close to its chest and the EU even more so, everyone is now suddenly supremely confident in the UK's future prospects. I'd be delighted if that turns out to be the case but it seems a bit of a longshot at this stage in the process).

StevieJ

Sapphire wrote: »

You see, that's the problem – the remainosaurs cannot accept the democratic vote and persist in stating that those who voted Leave did not know what they were voting for (this is generally accompanied by rhetoric to the effect that Leave voters are 'stupid', etc).

Let me assure you that everyone I know who voted Leave thought about it very deeply and knew exactly what they were voting for and what the repercussions could be. In fact, I'd say that since the people I know who voted thus are widely travelled, have a lot of knowledge about many things and are used to researching issues of various kinds, they are more aware about the various topics involved than the remainosaurs I know, one of whom, in my family, stated that he'd voted remain because he 'might not be able to travel in Europe' – but said that he must find out more about the entire subject, i.e. after voting! :T:rotfl:

Let me also assure you that no one I know who voted Leave has changed their mind – and in fact several remain voters I also know have done so after being horrified at the rhetoric emanating from the EU 'leaders' and realising more fully just what the EU intended as regards countries' sovereignty and democracy in general. To some people these are issues that matter more than anything else.

So when are we having that 2nd referendum? Just to be sure.