Waitrose

Mojisola

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

As stated above, "Organic" simply means that the animals in question must have been fed with a minimum of 70% organic products.

A turkey could legally be fed on the 70% minimum organic foodstuff but also have been kept in a dirty smelly cage with little or no suitable bedding material but because it can be labelled as "organic", it will sell for a higher price than a similarly housed turkey that was fed on non organic food.

"Organic" doesn't automatically mean free range, or that the animal in question lead a better life than a non organic bird, simply that it had different food.

Yes, it does.

A producer can't get organic status purely by feeding organic feeds.

NewShadow

Mojisola wrote: »

Yes, it does.

A producer can't get organic status purely by feeding organic feeds.

Great.

Can you provide a link to a resource from one of the organic control bodies outlining what higher welfare standards are required for certification as organic above and beyond those required by UK and/or EU animal welfare regulations for all meat?

Other than the minimum 70% of feed must be organic.

Mojisola

NewShadow wrote: »

Can you provide a link to a resource from one of the organic control bodies outlining what higher welfare standards are required for certification as organic above and beyond those required by UK and/or EU animal welfare regulations for all meat?

Other than the minimum 70% of feed must be organic.

https://www.soilassociation.org/certification/farming/organic-certification-for-farmers-and-growers/our-standards/

NewShadow

Mojisola wrote: »

https://www.soilassociation.org/certification/farming/organic-certification-for-farmers-and-growers/our-standards/

Thank you kindly but those pages link to a lot of other pages and a lot of irrelevant (to this conversation) information.

After a good 10 minutes of clicking through I'm still none the wiser about the soil association standards - which are only one of the organisations that can give organic accreditation.

Would you be able to quote exactly what it was you wanted me to read?

Ideally something that states UK regulations require higher welfare standards for animals raised to produce organic meat than none organic meat.

Mojisola

NewShadow wrote: »

Thank you kindly but those pages link to a lot of other pages and a lot of irrelevant (to this conversation) information.

After a good 10 minutes of clicking through I'm still none the wiser about the soil association standards - which are only one of the organisations that can give organic accreditation.

Would you be able to quote exactly what it was you wanted me to read?

Ideally something that states UK regulations require higher welfare standards for animals raised to produce organic meat than none organic meat.

Click on "Farming and Growing" and it will download the standards that have to be complied in order to gain certification.

Out of interest - where did you get your information about just feeding organic rations being sufficient for certification?

NewShadow

Mojisola wrote: »

Click on "Farming and Growing" and it will download the standards that have to be complied in order to gain certification.

Out of interest - where did you get your information about just feeding organic rations being sufficient for certification?

Given I'm in Wales... here - http://welshorganic.co.uk/images/2016%20QWFC%20Organic%20Standards%20-%20Producer%2020-7-16.pdf

The body that certify organic status in wales.

From page 24 is a list of the requirements in cows - which relate to Feeding standards and vet treatments

An example of where organic certification does not mean good welfare standards:

Calves must be fed on natural organic milk for at least 3 months, preferably (but not required to be) suckled.

All calves not meeting these standards must be recorded and sold as non-organic.

(emphasis mine)

So a calf must be fed organic milk, but is not required to be kept with it's mother, for a minimum of three months before being sold as organic.

Mojisola

NewShadow wrote: »

Given I'm in Wales... here - http://welshorganic.co.uk/images/2016%20QWFC%20Organic%20Standards%20-%20Producer%2020-7-16.pdf

The body that certify organic status in wales.

The Welsh Organic Scheme is just one of the certifying bodies - Welsh farmers can register with any of the other schemes if they want to.

Mojisola

NewShadow wrote: »

Can you provide a link to a resource from one of the organic control bodies outlining what higher welfare standards are required for certification as organic above and beyond those required by UK and/or EU animal welfare regulations for all meat?

Other than the minimum 70% of feed must be organic.

NewShadow wrote: »

From page 24 is a list of the requirements in cows - which relate to Feeding standards and vet treatments

An example of where organic certification does not mean good welfare standards:

(emphasis mine)

So a calf must be fed organic milk, but is not required to be kept with it's mother, for a minimum of three months before being sold as organic.

You wanted to see "what higher welfare standards are required for certification as organic above and beyond those required by UK and/or EU animal welfare regulations for all meat" and the standards for any of the certifying bodies will set that out.

You may not think the standards are high enough - if so, start a discussion with the certifying bodies or with DEFRA. Existing organic standards demand higher standards than are required for non-organic animals.

NewShadow

The Welsh Organic Scheme is just one of the certifying bodies - Welsh farmers can register with any of the other schemes if they want to.

You seem to be missing my point - the farmers can register with any scheme - and some schemes have higher welfare standards, some don't - regardless of the scheme's standards they get the same right to use the word 'organic' - meaning the word organic doesn't automatically carry assurance that the animal has been treated in a higher welfare way than a comparable non-organic product.

All it guarantees (because all that is required of them by UK/EU legislation) is that the feed is a minimum 70% organic ingredients - beyond that the schemes are free to sent any standards they see fit.

Mojisola wrote: »

You wanted to see "what higher welfare standards are required for certification as organic above and beyond those required by UK and/or EU animal welfare regulations for all meat" and the standards for any of the certifying bodies will set that out.

You may not think the standards are high enough - if so, start a discussion with the certifying bodies or with DEFRA. Existing organic standards demand higher standards than are required for non-organic animals.

I am not commenting on if the standards are high enough or not, I simply think it important (if people think welfare of animals is important) people make themselves aware of exactly what the world organic means.

I have illustrated how the difference between an organic calf and a non-organic calf - according to the standards of one of the schemes - is that the calf is fed organic milk rather than non-organic milk.

Nothing to do with the welfare of the calf or mother.

Conversely, RSPAC assured milk requires the calf to stay with the mother but does not require the calf to be fed organic milk (RSPCA allows the feeding of some GM products) - thus happy cows but not organic products.

No judgement, just facts.

Mojisola

NewShadow wrote: »

You seem to be missing my point - the farmers can register with any scheme - and some schemes have higher welfare standards, some don't - regardless of the scheme's standards they get the same right to use the word 'organic' - meaning the word organic doesn't automatically carry assurance that the animal has been treated in a higher welfare way than a comparable non-organic product.

Yes, it does - welfare is a integral part of the organic regulations.

All it guarantees (because all that is required of them by UK/EU legislation) is that the feed is a minimum 70% organic ingredients - beyond that the schemes are free to sent any standards they see fit.

This just isn't true!

This is just one example of the regulations -
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32008R0889