Waitrose

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Reading this thread while eating a bacon sandwich with no guilt whatsoever ever..

NewShadow

paddyrg wrote: »

Organic status in the UK certainly carries some of the very highest animal welfare standards. Things that are commonplace in the USA (antibiotics/growth hormones in milk for instance) simply do not apply in the UK/EU anyway, and absolutely not for any Organic certified products.

Meat labelled as ‘organic’ does not mean that the animal led a healthy 'good' life. Organic and free range are not synonymous and the label 'organic' has nothing to do with welfare standards.

For meat to be sold as organic the regulations in the UK only require that the animal was given organic feed and were not exposed to certain (but not all) growth regulators and livestock feed additives.

This does not mean the animal was not intensively farmed/overfed, has no relation to the amount of space, bedding or enrichment materials provided to the animal during it's life and does not indicate the stunning and slaughter processes which resulted in the animals death - i.e. the animals 'welfare'

As you note, some other legislation in the UK relates to animal welfare and farming standards, but this is equally applied to non-organic meat production and has nothing to do with the organic label.

Also, free range does not necessarily mean organic. While organic eggs must be free range to be classed as organic, organic chickens do not have to be free range to be classed as organic.

If you're concerned about animal welfare you have some options:

1. Raise the animals yourself
2. Buy them from somewhere you can see the conditions they've lived in
3. Don't eat meat
4. Buy meat labeled as both organic AND free range and live in happy ignorance of the specific conditions (given the multiple definitions of free range)
5. Buy your meat from the supermarket and live in happy ignorance of it's providence

Had a lovely lasagne for dinner but now really fancy a bacon buttie

daytona0

NewShadow wrote: »

1. Raise the animals yourself

Only a Welsh[wo]man would have this as option 1 :rotfl::D:D

NewShadow

daytona0 wrote: »

Only a Welsh[wo]man would have this as option 1 :rotfl::D:D

When I were a lass (Up North) we always 'ad chickens in 't garden - now I've moved to Wales I ain't got no space no more boyo.

Only problem was, having chickens in the garden, lots of eggs, not so many veggies, and mum and I would never let dad take any for the pot. We still bought our meat from the shops

Never name an animal you plan to eat...

PennyForThem_2

NewShadow: please show your evidence for your statement.

http://www.aboutorganics.co.uk/organic-food---labelling-and-packaging.html

All suppliers must be licensed in order to use the word "organic" in the product title. The term "organic" is a legally recognised term, the use of which is governed by trading standards legislation. The principles can be briefly summarised as follows:

If 95% or more organic ingredients are used, the product may be called organic in the title.
If between 70-95% of the ingredients used are organic, then the term "organic" may only be used in the ingredients listing.
If less that 70% of the ingredients are organic, then the term "organic" may not be used anywhere on the product packaging.

In addition, you can recognise organic produce by the use of logos from!accrediting bodies, such as OFF and SOPA, or by the EU license code number printed on the packaging.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/organic-farming-how-to-get-certification-and-apply-for-funding

You must register with an organic control body if you’re going to produce, prepare, store, import or sell organic products.
You’re breaking the law if you call a food product ‘organic’ if it hasn’t been inspected and certified by one of the UK’s 9 organic control bodies (CBs).
You’ll have to complete application, inspection and certification steps to become certified to produce or process organic products. You can download information packs from more than one of the approved!CBs or talk to them to find out more.

meer53

Can someone tell me how you know a turkey from a supermarket is "organic" ? Is it because the label says so ? If so, then i think it's all a load of bull. You could be eating any old turkey.

shaun_from_Africa

PennyForThem wrote: »

NewShadow: please show your evidence for your statement.

http://www.aboutorganics.co.uk/organic-food---labelling-and-packaging.html

All suppliers must be licensed in order to use the word "organic" in the product title. The term "organic" is a legally recognised term, the use of which is governed by trading standards legislation. The principles can be briefly summarised as follows:

If 95% or more organic ingredients are used, the product may be called organic in the title.
If between 70-95% of the ingredients used are organic, then the term "organic" may only be used in the ingredients listing.
If less that 70% of the ingredients are organic, then the term "organic" may not be used anywhere on the product packaging.

None of that disagrees in the slightest with what NewShadow posted.
As stated above, "Organic" simply means that the animals in question must have been fed with a minimum of 70% organic products.
A turkey could legally be fed on the 70% minimum organic foodstuff but also have been kept in a dirty smelly cage with little or no suitable bedding material but because it can be labelled as "organic", it will sell for a higher price than a similarly housed turkey that was fed on non organic food.

"Organic" doesn't automatically mean free range, or that the animal in question lead a better life than a non organic bird, simply that it had different food.

NewShadow

PennyForThem wrote: »

NewShadow: please show your evidence for your statement.

http://www.aboutorganics.co.uk/organic-food---labelling-and-packaging.html

All suppliers must be licensed in order to use the word "organic" in the product title. The term "organic" is a legally recognised term, the use of which is governed by trading standards legislation. The principles can be briefly summarised as follows:

If 95% or more organic ingredients are used, the product may be called organic in the title.
If between 70-95% of the ingredients used are organic, then the term "organic" may only be used in the ingredients listing.
If less that 70% of the ingredients are organic, then the term "organic" may not be used anywhere on the product packaging.

In addition, you can recognise organic produce by the use of logos from!accrediting bodies, such as OFF and SOPA, or by the EU license code number printed on the packaging.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/organic-farming-how-to-get-certification-and-apply-for-funding

You must register with an organic control body if you’re going to produce, prepare, store, import or sell organic products.
You’re breaking the law if you call a food product ‘organic’ if it hasn’t been inspected and certified by one of the UK’s 9 organic control bodies (CBs).
You’ll have to complete application, inspection and certification steps to become certified to produce or process organic products. You can download information packs from more than one of the approved!CBs or talk to them to find out more.

As has been stated already - Your quote supports my position in stating the definition of organic is a minimum of 70% 'organic ingredients'.

Welfare conditions are not 'ingredients' and therefore the term organic in UK legislation has no requirement relating to welfare standards.

Further to this, lower down the page from your quote:

What counts as organic farming
Organic farming can include:

• avoiding artificial fertilisers and pesticides
• using crop rotation and other forms of husbandry to maintain soil fertility
• controlling weeds, pesticides and diseases using husbandry techniques and where necessary approved materials to control pests and diseases
• using a limited number of approved products and substances where necessary in the processing of organic food

Please note no statement relating any minimum conditions (welfare) the animal should be kept in while being raised as 'organic'

antrobus

Horseygirl123 wrote: »

I am fuming. As a passionate advocate of animal welfare, I always buy organic meat. Nearly three months ago I ordered an organic turkey from waitrose to be delivered this week. Foolishly I assumed what you order is reserved for you....

"Foolishly" would be the correct word to use.

Horseygirl123 wrote: »

... Imagine my shock when the turkey delivered was not organic free range and an email later explained they had run out and the personal shopper selected an alternative product. Customer Services didn't even have the decency to reply to my complaining email. I can't even bring myself to cook the turkey so will be giving it away....

Why was it a shock? Did you not read the T&Cs?

Where an item is unavailable and you have indicated that you will accept substitutions, an alternative will be supplied ....Upon delivery or collection you will be made aware of unavailable items and their substitutes. You have the right to reject any substitutes offered and we will refund the amount that you have been charged for that product

http://www.waitrose.com/content/waitrose/en/corporate_information_home/corporate_information/legal_notices/terms_and_conditions.html

PennyForThem_2

Organic producers (in UK) have to be registered with one of 9 recognised officially sanctioned associations i.e Soil Association. Look at website in my post to find out which as there is a link.

https://www.soilassociation.org/what-we-do/organic-standards/

With an animal free range and organic are (usually) paired in UK supermarkets.

I eat labelled high welfare animal produce. I don't buy from the corner shop I buy from Q butcher or from Waitrose. I am not particularly fussed whether organic or not.

I have sympathy for the OP though which obviously from this thread others have not for various reasons.

Just out of interest - note the recent Lidl adverts about the provenance of their beef and mussels. This rather shows that supermarkets must care about the welfare of their animal produce because the consumer is beginning to. Note eggs too and the change to free range - I admit that catering eggs probably from caged hens.