Will Brexit really be good for Britain?

CKhalvashi

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Because TBH although I am not one for reporting posts, yours ARE beginning to sorely tempt me so to do.
Bullying - even in faceless forums such as this - is both unnecessary and inappropriate, and that is what you are doing.

Does the poster who decided to post (since removed) links where it's possible to contact me directly before posting my name and rough description publicly not get the same warning from you?

Do you think that after he has admitted receiving death threats online it could be construed as encouraging others to do the same in this case? Because I do believe that was the intention. My point was merely to request that the offending post was removed as it is in clear breach of the forum rules.

Do you think that's acceptable, or that it isn't bullying?

I appreciate I'm in a minority here however it doesn't mean I will be intimidated by the majority. I have not threatened or bullied anyone, merely made a friendly suggestion. If you have interpreted this in a different way I apologise for that, however the suggestions I have made still stand.

Oh and I give not a jot of your race, religion or nationality but such behaviour as you are exhibiting is not acceptable.
Kindly therefore confine your responses to debate, rather than threat.
Thank you.

I have merely attempted to debate, however I have had numerous (what I consider relatively important points) ignored that I have repeatedly attempted to bring up.

As stated above, I do not see how the suggestions I have made are at all unacceptable, however the actions of others here (which if anything were to happen could be bordering on criminal) definitely are.

CKhalvashi

Tromking wrote: »

Again, taking no lectures from an Eastern European on racism and xenophobia et al. You reside in one of the enlightened countries on the planet, but I guess you know that, it may have been the reason you came here in the first place.
I neither seek or need any credibility from you. I want an agreement that fallls within the scope of the referendum question, I`m not sure you do. 48% in a binary choice referendum is a losing score I`m afraid.

That is true, however I am no longer campaigning to remain in the EU.

I am, however, in line with my party views requesting that the end result is put to the public in a similar manner whether that is to remain in the single market or for a completely clean break.

A majority of my questioning here has been specifically on exactly what the Brexiteers want, some of the suggestions I've made not being directly relevant to what I want or indeed what I think is best, as I feel has been necessary in the scenario.

The basic logic still stands though; I feel that the UK is in the best position remaining in a close relationship with the mainland and Ireland, whilst also forging an improved relationship with the rest of the world.

We don't need to leave the EU to do that even though for now, that is inevitbly the case. You will however appreciate that the question on my ballot paper was a very wide one, with many possible outcomes. I've stated which one I want and while I will take into account the views of others in this, I won't necessarily pay any attention to them, and it will take something extremely compelling to get me to change my mind, nothing yet has been provided.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

CKhalvashi wrote: »

Does the poster who decided to post (since removed) links where it's possible to contact me directly before posting my name and rough description publicly not get the same warning from you?

Do you think that after he has admitted receiving death threats online it could be construed as encouraging others to do the same in this case? Because I do believe that was the intention. My point was merely to request that the offending post was removed as it is in clear breach of the forum rules.

Do you think that's acceptable, or that it isn't bullying?

I appreciate I'm in a minority here however it doesn't mean I will be intimidated by the majority. I have not threatened or bullied anyone, merely made a friendly suggestion. If you have interpreted this in a different way I apologise for that, however the suggestions I have made still stand.



I have merely attempted to debate, however I have had numerous (what I consider relatively important points) ignored that I have repeatedly attempted to bring up.

As stated above, I do not see how the suggestions I have made are at all unacceptable, however the actions of others here (which if anything were to happen could be bordering on criminal) definitely are.

I must remind you again that this is a public forum.
There are options for you to use should you be concerned with content of comments from other posters, should you wish to do so.

Regardless of your personal opinion you may be assured that the continued use of response in a threatening nature may result in such actions being taken.
Whether such response comes from yourself or from other posters.

Suggesting a poster is racist and/or requesting removal/apology is inappropriate behaviour.
If you cannot or do not understand that I must put it to you that you should reconsider your participation in these forums.

Others may wish to discuss this further but I will not.

A_Pict_In_A_Past_Life

Aye, some heated discussion which is maybe getting a little bit too heated?
Calm is indeed called for.



CK, you seem to think that somehow there will be options available to the UK?
If there are (which I doubt) do you not at least see that the final proposition will be at the end of discussions?
And that the EU27 must agree - in majority at least, it seems?

So what the heck do you want a vote on since by then it will be "agree or don't agree"?
You want a vote at every stage of negotiation, maybe?
Not exactly practical, is it?
So perhaps you see now how inconsistent your argument becomes?

BTW, Like everyone else I was asked if I wanted to stay in the EU or leave the EU.
There were no other questions asked or implied.

As I voted to leave, that is what I would like the UK to do.
Leave the EU.
Not with any "but keeping ..." or "and only if ..." or "and pay for ...." or anything else.
Leave.

CKhalvashi

There are 2 options available to the UK as I see it:

Remain in the EEA, accept the 4 freedoms, build exports to non-EEA countries and possibly look to change the deal then (which is my preferred one for numerous reasons, and will require the 2025-2030 government to revisit where we stand). Also note that we can block inbound immigration while not annoying those that want to leave the UK in this situation, however I want to see a guarantee that any EEA nationals are given the right to remain.

or

Don't remain in the EEA and face tarriffs in both directions, which will harm both, with the UK being harmed a lot more. Also, EEA nationals will need to be given a right to remain if we have any chance of a possible FTA.

Which would you (and everyone else) prefer? Nothing inconsistent in that argument, and thank you for giving me the chance to explain it again, for information gathering.

cogito

I too am happy to see that EU nationals have the right to remain in the UK after Brexit and for UK nationals to have the right to remain in EU countries.

This is a matter that could be resolved in five minutes but the EU commissioners refuse to discuss it. I wonder why.

A_Pict_In_A_Past_Life

Out the EEA.

The EU have been taking UK funds for enough years.
Time for them to find another cash cow to fund the dinosaur which the EU has become.

Tarrifs - may well become necessary on both sides, I agree.
HOWEVER the degree of these will in all probability not be as exhorbitant as some imagine.

Not only because of the harm this could cause both sides but also because the EU has already allowed so many items from so many countries tarrif-free that to impose tarrifs upon the UK would be unfair and thus illegal according to the EU's own rules.

I look forward to seeing how they think they will wrangle their way around this TBH.



As for EU/EEA nationals remaining in the UK, I do not see and nor have I seen anywhere suggestions other than that those here may stay.
The suggestions from those in power within the EU sadly cannot or will not confirm this to be the opinion of the EU though; I wonder why that is?

ETA - darn, beaten to last bit.
See above post.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

Out.

If the EU really want to play silly beggars (though I really think this unlikely) I'm sure that the UK could tie them up in their own red tape for decades!

I really don't see that much changing regards our dealings with the EU, primarily because of their realisation (which MUST come if the EU is to survive in ANY form) that substantial reform of the EU itself is necessary.

Re: EU nationals - as above.
And please ask the EU commisioners why it has not been a priority for them to provide reassurance when this would be so easy to provide.

Sapphire

cogito wrote: »

I too am happy to see that EU nationals have the right to remain in the UK after Brexit and for UK nationals to have the right to remain in EU countries.

This is a matter that could be resolved in five minutes but the EU commissioners refuse to discuss it. I wonder why.

I agree, with the proviso that they should only be allowed to be here for work purposes. And anyone who commits (or has already committed) criminal acts or, for example, begs on the street, should be immediately returned to their own country. It is grossly unfair to taxpayers of this country who have worked hard all their lives to be supporting free loaders from inside or outside the EU, or to put up with criminal acts from visitors to our country, which is detrimental to our own people and causes huge resentment.

leveller2911

CKhalvashi wrote: »

There are 2 options available to the UK as I see it:

Remain in the EEA, accept the 4 freedoms, build exports to non-EEA countries and possibly look to change the deal then (which is my preferred one for numerous reasons, and will require the 2025-2030 government to revisit where we stand). Also note that we can block inbound immigration while not annoying those that want to leave the UK in this situation, however I want to see a guarantee that any EEA nationals are given the right to remain.

We were all told prior to the referendum by Cameron,Osborne,Gove,Johnson,Stewart,Hoey,Umunna,Corbyn,Miliband, Sturgeon, Salmond etc etc etc that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market. Wasn't it also mentioned in the leaflet sent to every UK household?.
I also remind you of my previous post where I said the public have no trust in politicans so do you honestly believe they would give the public another vote on whether or not we want to leave the EU post 2030?.

Thats a non starter I'm afraid.

The top 2 reasons people gave for voting leave were to take back sovereignty and to be able to control immigration/borders and your preferred choice does neither.

Don't remain in the EEA and face tarriffs in both directions, which will harm both, with the UK being harmed a lot more. Also, EEA nationals will need to be given a right to remain if we have any chance of a possible FTA.

How will the UK be harmed more than the EU?. The UK has more chance of signing a FTD with the USA than the EU and given that Trump is looking to gown down the insular "made in America" route this will not help the EU economy surely?

Tarrifs both ways negate each other. My own view is EU nationals living here should be given the right to remain but once we trigger Article 50 thats the cut off point so anyone moving to the UK or from the UK to the EU post Article 50 signing gives no guaranteeotherwise we will see numbers coming here increasing each year until the final deal is signed.

Any EU migrant who is given a custodial sentence of more than 12 months or a repeat offender should be deported on release even if they have family here and the same should go for Brits living in the EU. We need rules to stop people lving here for years on benefits, even if they are a minority and the same rules for Brits claiming benefits in Poland,Romania etc.

I fully get your personal need to remain in the EU but for me the EU is like a very slow motion car crash and we can all see the end game.